Comic Boom - The Comics in Education podcast with Neill Cameron

In this episode I chat with award winning comics creator, Neill Cameron.

Neill Cameron is a cartoonist and writer, creator of the comic books Mega Robo Bros,   Since 2011 his work has appeared in the weekly children’s comic The Phoenix. In 2016 Mega Robo Bros and Tamsin and the Deep were both shortlisted for the British Comics Awards. In 2017, Mega Robo Bros won the Excelsior Award Jr, a national comic award voted for by school and library reading groups across the UK. In 2018 Mega Robo Bros was chosen as one of the best children's comics of the year by both the New York Public Library and the Schools Library Journal.

MOre recently Neill has become known for the brilliant Donut Squad Series, run as a series of comic strips in The Phoenix, and later collected in books.

This interview first appeared as a written article in Books for Keeps, the Uk's leading, independent children's book magazine.

Neill's recommendation from the show: Go Man! by Hamish Steele

Lucy's recommendation from the show: Raised by Ghosts by Briana Loweinsohn

This episode of Comic Boom is sponsored by ALCS, The Authors Licensing and Collecting Society.

Follow Neill on Insta  @neillcameron

Follow the podcast:
Insta: @comic_boom_podcast
Twitter/X: @Lucy_Braidley
Bluesky: @comicboom.bsky.social

Contact: comicboompodcast@gmail.com

Music by John_Sib from Pixabay

Transcript

0:08

Hello and welcome to Comic Boom, the comics and Education podcast. If you are interested in hearing more about the crossover between comics and education, then this is the podcast for you. My name is Lucy Starbuck Braidley, and each week I'll be joined by a fellow educator, an academic, a librarian, or a creator of comics to discuss their journey into comics and provide some inspiration to influence your practice and hopefully shine some light on some titles you can bring into your libraries, classrooms, and maybe onto your bookshelves at home too. This episode of Comic Beam is sponsored by A LCS, the authors licensing and collecting society. Now this episode, I'm very delighted to bring back one of my favorite cartoonists, Neil Cameron. You will know Neil Cameron from his previous episode. If you go right back, way back when to the start of comic boom, you can find an introductory, an episode of Neil Cameron. and you'll also of course know him from his excellent body of work. He is a regular cartoonist for the Phoenix comic. He produces the. Mega Robo bro series, one of my all time favorite middle grade reader series. And of course now he's also the creator of the hugely popular donut squad. And we are gonna talk about how his career has evolved since the last time he joined us on the podcast, he was just about wrapping up the last of a mega Robo bro series, a long running series that he had invested a lot of his life into. And since then, donut Squad has happened, things have taken off, and it's just a really interesting time to talk to him. And this interview actually originally took place, for Books, for Keeps. Books For Keeps is an online free magazine about children's literature, really high quality articles in there. Your favorite authors, some new authors that you may not have heard of before. articles really getting under the skin, and analyzing children's literature. Some really important content. exploring representation in children's literature. So I really recommend checking out. Books for Keeps. I'll put the link to that in the show notes too. I did also wanna say welcome back. Sorry it's been so long since our previous episode. I had some work done on my house. It took a long time to get sorted out and it wasn't conducive to producing a podcast, so I'm delighted to be back. Got a series of five episodes coming up, with some really interesting guests. So your comic boom, fix. We'll be here for the next few weeks, for next month or so. and then we'll get back into a, a more even keel in terms of producing the episodes. So thank you so much for your patience. but that's all of it for me for now. I'll come back at the end of the episode as I always do with a bit of a roundup, but for now, here's what Neil has to say.

Lucy SB 2:42

Hello Neil. Welcome to Comic Boom.

Neill Cameron 2:44

Hello.

Lucy SB 2:45

It is so lovely to have you back on. You were one of our first few guests that we had on the podcast. It's brilliant to have you back to talk about what's going on with you now.

Neill Cameron 2:54

very honored to be back. Yeah. Returning guest

Lucy SB 2:57

is a very, privileged position. You are one of the, the few to start us off as anyone who wants to listen to a little bit more wider about your background and things we talked about last time. I'll put a link in the show notes for people to go back and listen to that episode. But I thought we could talk a little bit more generally about, what comics you are loving at the moment, what you're seeing out there that's really exciting you and inspiring you as a creator and a reader, I suppose.

Neill Cameron 3:22

That is a great question. I have been just recently since. Since thought bubble. In fact sort of trying to force myself to this sounds bad, but trying to force myself to read comics again because I had sort of fallen outta the habit a bit.'cause I, I, I don't wanna whine, but I work really hard lately. Like I've been put in a lot of hours at the drawing board and there's not much time for anything afterwards. And something about spending literally all day and night drawing comics is that when you do clock off, you don't necessarily wanna read a comic. That's

Lucy SB 4:02

Yeah. Sick of the sight of them is what you're saying.

Neill Cameron 4:04

sick of the absolute, this is not, this is very off message, isn't it? I'm very off brand right now'cause I do love comics, but I, yeah, I, you, you get so sort of lost in your, in your own little world, don't you?

Lucy SB 4:17

Yeah. So what did you find at, at Thought

Neill Cameron 4:20

Well, I went and thought, well, and I did an event in Brussels that was organized by the Comic Art Fest where where I discovered some fantastic Belgian comics artists whose work I do not know, but more excitingly for me. I discovered a bunch of British comics artists who were there with me, where it was a group of us went over together, whose work I was not that familiar with. And it was really cool and exciting too. And it was just like, oh yeah, the wider comics community. I, I think partly it's the, I work so hard, I don't have a lot of time to read comics and partly as now, like I, I know so many comics creators now, and I just, just, just in terms of the Phoenix, you know, and sort of,

Lucy SB 4:54

Yeah. Yeah.

Neill Cameron 4:54

that's a lot of comics to read already and so, so I remember, oh

Lucy SB 4:58

the kind of comic art side is Inc. Is a much broader range, not just children's comics,

Neill Cameron 5:03

There's a much bigger world out there than just the Phoenix. Yeah. Even within the world of children's comics. But you know, there's whole other worlds beyond that. And so it's just been, it's been a good reminder for me, I suppose, of that.'cause like I say, you can get a bit sort of just head down, just sort of focused on your little corner of the world and it's, it's it's much bigger world than that.

Lucy SB 5:22

And are there any particular titles that you wanna give a shout out to? Just that, because I'm sure lots of people listening also get in that kind of rut and it's just nice to hear a couple of titles or something that they think, oh,

Neill Cameron 5:32

Yeah, for sure. Like within the sort of roughly the same kind of age range as the. The work that I do or this kind, you know, within the sort of you know, appropriate for Children Range. I just recently read Goman by Hamish Steele, which is just my favorite comic I've read in absolutely years. I thought it was stunningly good. And it's everything I love in

Lucy SB 5:57

not read it yet,

Neill Cameron 5:59

my God, you gotta read it. It's

Lucy SB 6:00

I'm gonna talk quietly'cause I have bought it for someone's Christmas present, so it is in my house and as soon as I've given it to them, I'm gonna tear it out of their hands

Neill Cameron 6:08

Well, that,

Lucy SB 6:08

and read it myself.

Neill Cameron 6:09

no, I loved it. It's, it is so funny and just it's so emotional and so intelligent and so thoughtful. And it's just, yeah, it's just, it reminded me how much fun like superheroes are and how much fun like adventure.

Lucy SB 6:21

Hmm.

Neill Cameron 6:22

Storytelling is,'cause it's all of that, but just boiled down to, into this one. Beautifully executed and just really brilliantly done graphic novel which is the first of a series, I believe. So that's incredibly exciting as well. yeah, it's the sort of thing we need. We just need lots more of, frankly. And so I love that. Also in that same sort of roughly same sort of age range I'm sure you've, I'm sure you've talked about this one probably on the podcast before, but boss of the Underworld by Tor Freeman is

Lucy SB 6:47

Yeah, we haven't spoken about it on the podcast, actually, but that's a great book.

Neill Cameron 6:52

It's, it's fantastic. It's so funny. It's, it's just so mad and inventive and cool. And

Lucy SB 7:00

yeah. I find that the, the Tor's, humor just, it kind of sneaks up on you and there's some things a, it just make me laugh so hard, completely out of nowhere that, I dunno, I can't really explain it, but it is just a really dry sense of humor that just really, really

Neill Cameron 7:15

I think in, in both of those cases there, you know, the, like all like the best kind of kids comics, you'd hope, they are hugely fun to read as an adult. and very funny and, you know they, they work for everyone. I think and in the, out, out with the realm of children's comics, I think the, maybe my favorite thing I bought at Thought Bubble and I've read since was it's just a very short comic called Five More Minutes by Hanna Berry. Which is, I don't even want to sort of give a, it's, it's so short and sort of so it's so fleeting, but I don't even wanna sort of tell you what it's about.'cause any kind of description would almost ruin it. But it's, it's, I guess it's about parenting and

Lucy SB 7:57

It's something to go and investigate and for people to

Neill Cameron 7:59

Yes. Yeah, for sure. I, I

Lucy SB 8:00

Hmm.

Neill Cameron 8:01

hugely recommend that.

Lucy SB 8:02

Great. And Hannah Berry's been on the podcast before and she's brilliant. So one of the things I wanted to talk to you about, just I guess to set the scene and think about your your origin story is, and we we're entering the National Year of Reading which is dedicated to promote reading for pleasure in lots of different types of reading. And there has been, I feel like a growing conversation since the last time you came on the podcast about comics and their importance. And there's been a lot more discussion around that. I just wondered from your perspective, thinking back, what is it about comics that really spoke to you as a child and carried you into that, you know, the career that you have now? From a view of thinking about the children there now that who might be in the same position?

Neill Cameron 8:43

It's, it's a really good question and I dunno, like, weirdly, I've maybe never really thought about it. Like I've, I've always, I've always known and acknowledged the, the huge impact that comics had on me and sort of that they made me a reader basically. But I'd never really thought about why. Like, because it's just sort of,'cause comics are awesome, right? Like that's

Lucy SB 9:03

Yeah.

Neill Cameron 9:04

but, but beyond that, I, I suppose it is just, you know, like I do make a living now and have for quite some time as a as a cartoonist and as an illustrator. That suggests to me that I do have quite a visual sort of way of learning or way of thinking and sort of way of processing information. And so I, I think it was just'cause,'cause it's pictures, you know, like I. I was always just fascinated by the drawings and they, cool and exciting and they just grab you straight away. And we, you know, we see that all the time with kids, you know, coming to read through comics. We see that all the time with, you know, kids with dyslexia. Coming to read through comics is the, the appeal of the image sort of helps, helps ease you in. it is just so fun and engaging. It gives you so much straight away, even if the words are still a bit of a challenge for you, that it's, it motivates you to read rather than making reading seem in any way off-putting or sort of challenging. Because it's, it's giving you so much while leading you in.

Lucy SB 9:58

Yeah, it's got that sort of scaffold around it that the image is kind of scaffold the meaning of the words, but also it's kind of greater than, its some of its parts, isn't it?

Neill Cameron 10:06

yeah. Completely. Yeah.

Lucy SB 10:08

there's so much depth there as well, I think it was Nick Ani, who's an American professor and comics creator said that really stuck with me is that, they're in actually very complex comics, but they're also very accessible and you can have great depth within them but still have a huge range of people who can access that depth, which I think is really true.

Neill Cameron 10:28

Yeah. No, completely. I, I think that, that that's completely true. And you know, there, there, there's studies which. Someone like Mark Bradley would be better placed to quote than I am.'cause I can never remember this kind of stuff about what's happening in the brain when you read a comic and the complexity that's going on and the, the fact you're using all these different parts of your brain.'cause you're processing sort of all these streams at the same time. You know, the, the visual stream and the text stream and you can do really fun and, and you know, that's the joy of comics is that the ways that you can play with that and sort of make them work together or make them work against each other and that's what gives it such richness, medium. But just in terms of its initial appeal and why it's so appealing to kids in particular, I think is just,'cause like pictures are cool, like. Just we, I, I have quite a visual brain, I think, but like, I think like lots of people do, and certainly kids do, like kids love drawing, kids love making pictures, kids love looking at pictures, kids love, you know, that's, that's just a huge part of sort of how you are engaging with the world at that age. And so storytelling medium that is, you know, that sort of picture Books Plus is, is, you know, intrinsically incredibly appealing to kids. I think.

Lucy SB 11:42

Yeah, completely agree.

Neill Cameron 11:44

because it's so intrinsically appealing to kids and because it's pictures that does mean, I think that sometimes people do see it as simplistic or as you know, just for struggling readers or just for beginning readers. And I think everything you were saying about the complexity that's possible and and the richness of the form, I think is completely true. And that's what we, that's what we who love comics know. But maybe we need to sort of communicate more to people who don't have, have that message yet, you know? And, and the secrets getting out. I think like more and more people are, are recognizing this. I think we've come a long way in, in the time since we last talked, probably.

Lucy SB 12:21

Yeah, I think so too.

Neill Cameron 12:23

but there's still, you know, there's still work to be done.

Lucy SB 12:28

Shall we talk more specifically about one thing that's been very big since the last time we spoke is Donut Squad,

Neill Cameron 12:35

Hmm.

Lucy SB 12:36

Which have been hugely popular very successful. The book's been very successful, the strips as well before that. Mentioned on The Guardians sort of roundup of the best children's books which is amazing to see. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about the, the series, how it came about for anyone who hasn't managed to see it yet?

Neill Cameron 12:56

Yeah, sure. Yeah, I'm, I'm trying to remember if I was even doing it like when we, when we talked

Lucy SB 13:01

I don't think you were, I think we were in the lead up to the last mega Robo Bros

Neill Cameron 13:06

yeah, so, so I, I might have like, there would've been round about that time that I started doing it, and, and because I think the. The, the, the way I've come to see it now, and the way I've sort of tell it to people is that doing the last Mega Rose book was sort of quite stressful and difficult and a lot of pressure. And I think all that pressure did something strange to my brain and sort of as a release valve for that pressure, I started drawing these just very deeply stupid little fall panel gag trips about donuts. So what the strip is, it's, it's for panel little gag strips about donuts who insofar as there's a plot, they want to be popular and beloved and take over the world. But mostly it's just, it's, I I find it quite hard to describe. It's just whatever weird ideas pop into my head, but just with donuts, it goes to a lot of places. Like it's, it covers, there's

Lucy SB 14:01

But it does have a, it does have a kind of overarching narrative as it's progressed, it's developed a bit more of a characters and a range of characters and that, and and, and a narrative. Is that just something that you've kind of just been drawn into as you've done more of it, you've kind of started linking them a little bit more or?

Neill Cameron 14:22

Oh yeah, no, that, that's happened naturally and that's'cause I just can't help myself apparently. You know, like, as I say, it was, it was supposed to be my fun little release valve from doing these big complicated narratives that had sort of worn me out a bit. And now, I mean, we we're at the point now where, like the story we just finished in the Phoenix the, the donut squad story is by far the most complicated ludicrously over complicated thing I've ever done in my life. It was such hard work.

Lucy SB 14:54

you literally cannot help yourself.

Neill Cameron 14:56

And it, so, you know, it just happens naturally, doesn't it? You, you do a strip and then, you know, you think, oh, I could build on that. And then, oh, I think I know how to build it. Just in terms of jokes, like, oh, I could, I, I know what the next version of that gag is, or I know how I can build on that. I think this would be funny. And then before you know it, you've constructed these giant elaborate

Lucy SB 15:14

I'm imagining a kind of complex board with bits of string connecting different donuts to different points in the narrative to, to keep you

Neill Cameron 15:22

Oh, just.

Lucy SB 15:22

on, track.

Neill Cameron 15:23

Yeah, I mean the, this last one that we just finished, but it was, it, there were, there were spreadsheets, there were schedules, there were diagrams. There was, there was a lot going on. Yeah,

Lucy SB 15:35

So there's one book out and then in the new year the second

Neill Cameron 15:38

The next one's out in January. And then I mean, I think that the plan is for two a year, but we'll see how long I can sustain that rate before going completely strange. Yeah.

Lucy SB 15:50

Yeah.'cause obviously Mega Robo Rose was a really long running and very complex and beautiful series and I know that, you know, when we spoke before, you said that you had the kind of a long term vision, maybe not minutely planned out, but you sort of knew the shape of that story from the start. Is this, this is being approached in a similar way or you know, as in, have you, have you got more of a plan? I'm sort of sensing no.

Neill Cameron 16:14

No, not at all. Not at all. goodness knows, honestly, like Donut Squad was never really supposed to be to exist. It was certainly not supposed to be like my next big project, you know? As I say, I just like. I had this weird little idea and I thought, and I thought, yeah, four, four final little CG strips. I can draw for a few of those. That'll be some nice, like light relief to take the, take the pressure off from all the sort of epic intense emotional drama I've been drawing lately. And I drew like, just roughs of maybe like six or so strips, just sort of getting it down, figuring out what it was. And I found it funny, but I was like, I don't. This is probably something for me to like maybe do if I've got spare time and post to Instagram and keep up for like a week or two and then run out of time and get distracted and get back to real work, you know?'Cause I don't think it fits in the Phoenix. I think it's a bit, probably it's a bit too weird. Like it's not really,

Lucy SB 17:09

Yeah.

Neill Cameron 17:10

it turns out I massively underestimated the weirdness, tolerance levels of the Phoenix. so I, which, which in hindsight, you know, what was I thinking? But I did send, I did send the roughs, I did to to my editor Joe because I thought, well he's gonna find it funny. Like, and he'll, I don't think it's for the Phoenix, but just on the off chance it is, it'd be nice to get paid. You know? So that's the joy of being published in a comic and not just me posting things to Instagram. You get paid. So I thought I'd send it to Joe'cause he'd find it funny at least. And yeah, he was like, yeah. How, how soon can you finish these? Do you wanna just do it? Just keep doing them, keep sending'em in. And so yeah, and it has, it has taken on a bit of a life of its own and sort of it, and I was like, okay, I'll do this through our, while I figure out what my next big project is. I'll, this is a fun little way to sort of, you know, keep the lights on you know, mega Obra was such a big thing and it was such a sort of huge part of my life, honestly, and sort of part of my creative life. That sort of, when that came to an end, I was sort of like looking around going, what, what do I do next? Like, what's the next big story?'cause like that was my big story and it took me 10 years to tell it the prospect of starting another one. If it's gonna potentially take 10 years it's quite intimidating. And like, how many of those have I got left in me? You know? And so it puts this pressure onto it that it's got to be the right, it's gotta be the right choice. It's, and so it, I dunno, I was kind of stalling under that pressure and so I thought I'll do this while I figure all that out. And it turns out, no, this, this is now the next big

Lucy SB 18:48

this is, you are now the donut guy.

Neill Cameron 18:50

I'm now the donut guy. Yeah. Um, It's completely taken over. I, I think it's, I think it's fair to say it's just instantly eclipsed to Mega Robo Bros terms of popularity by quite some margin. Which I'm mad about, frankly. But no. To go back to your original question. No, it is sort of the complete opposite. Like Mega Robo Bros had a plan. It was a story, it was, I knew if not the specifics of the story beats, I knew like the emotional shape of it and the emotions I want to end on. And I had that in sort of sight from the very beginning. This is just, I'm just making it up as I go along. And I think that's, that's done me a power of good, you know, like'cause it is, it's not working to a plan. It is just sort of coming up with jokes and then building jokes on top of jokes, you know, and seeing, seeing where it takes you. And I think that that is a completely different way of working, but it's really fun and it opens you up to discoveries along the way in a way that you can't, if you're sort of locked into a plan. You know,

Lucy SB 19:51

Yeah.

Neill Cameron 19:51

like the, the whole, the whole thing with the bagels was never supposed to happen. That was a. That was a, like a punchline. One of my few punchlines I've done that got like rejected or I was asked to come up with an alternative'cause it was deemed a bit too too controversial or occasionally I pushed the line a bit too far and so I had a punchline and I was asked to go away and think about another punchline. And so for that, I came up with, oh, and, you know, maybe uh, something, something bagels. And then, and then the bagels took on a life of their own and then they entered into an elaborate war and se series of escalating schemes against the donuts. And now we are where we are and yeah, I've, I've done like four books worth of material for these guys already it's, it's just taken on ludicrous proportions.

Lucy SB 20:42

Do you think part of the appeal is also it's quite accessible in terms of the fans being able to engage and do their own drawings of donuts or creating their own characters, it's kind of this, it's such a stretchy world that can, it's got space for your own kind of ideas as a reader as well.

Neill Cameron 20:59

Oh yeah, yeah, completely. because yeah, donuts are quite easy to draw is sort of the, the joy of it. And so they're very inviting to have a go at drawing your own. And, you know, we do the thing in the books of like showing you how to draw the characters and encouraging you to have a go at making it own, but you don't even need to do that and encourage people.'cause they will just, the amount of like. Look, here are my donuts I've created that, that we get in the post is, is wild. And because I think, and I think that's sort of, that's a really good lesson that I maybe didn't, hadn't intuited earlier when I thought that like, you know, when I was a kid and I loved comics, I loved sort of, you know, your simpler cartoon. Ostensibly simpler cartoony styles. Like, Snoopy, Charlie Brown Garfield, Cameron Hobbs, of course. But I also really, really loved the sort of more you know, inverse commas, realistic, sort of the more action oriented stuff, you know? Yeah. Transformers and into 2080, the art that makes you go like, whoa,

Lucy SB 21:58

Wow. How'd they do that? With all the perspective and,

Neill Cameron 22:00

yeah. Yeah. So I thought, I always really responded to that. Whoa, look at this art kind of aspect of comic. And that is a cool and important and valid aspect of comics, but it almost more important, particularly at this age range, is like, ha ha, I could do that. You know, like, so you're not, you're not intimidating readers with how great you are a drawing. You are inviting them in by making it feel like they could do it too, you know? And, that's a really important part of how kids engage with comics is, which I should have known'cause that's how I got started. But like, you read the comic you like, and then you have a go at drawing your version of it or drawing those characters and then making up your own new ones. And like, that's quite hard when they're ludicrously complicated robots that take four hours to draw, but it's a lot easier when they're little round donuts. You know? It's, it's, it just invites a lot more people in,

Lucy SB 22:55

in terms of like the longer term picture, have you got other ideas that you want to, to kind of explore any kernels of, of other projects or is it very much that this has kind of grown to, to take, take over your capacity for thinking about other things at the moment?

Neill Cameron 23:10

I mean, certainly for the last six months or so this just completely took over everything. And it's, it, it's been really fun. Like it, and it's, I've been able to do things and then sort of pushed the limits of it in ways that have been hugely fun and creatively challenging to me. And so I've not minded the fact that it's taken over everything. having labored for years hoping people would read my comics. Then Donut Squad has. You know, taken off in ways I could never have imagined it would be churlish not to enjoy the fact that people are now reading my

Lucy SB 23:47

Yeah.

Neill Cameron 23:48

And so it's very exciting and I sort of, I'm happy to, you know try and try and surf this wave and make the most of this moment and sort of just, people want donuts. I'll give them donuts, you know, I'll give them so many donuts they'll regret ever asking. but I, I also, yes, I definitely think I, I'm starting to feel the call of maybe, maybe write something that isn't about donuts also, maybe there are other stories I'd like to tell, or just other things I'd like to draw as an artist, you know beyond just small round guys pulling funny faces, much as I love that. But, just as a creator, I think I'm already starting to feel that I miss the, oh, wow, cool. Look at this sort of side of things. I miss sort of big crazy action scenes and, you know, huge perspective shots and mad imagery that, you know, spreads across two whole pages and just you, you know, I, I I love all that stuff. And that's

Lucy SB 24:41

Do you ever feel the fear when you're doing stuff like that? Do you ever have ideas that you're not sure you can draw? Or are you at the stage where you're just confident that you can draw Most things you think up now

Neill Cameron 24:50

that's a really good question. I think maybe, I think because I have sort of quite a visually brain I sort of, I sort of think, think by drawing, and so I, I'm not sure I could have a thought that I couldn't sort of think how to draw. you know what I mean?

Lucy SB 25:07

Yeah.

Neill Cameron 25:08

I think if, if you're a writer who's writing comics for other people, that's maybe a problem. But like, I. I I, if in a way I'm limited as a writer by the fact that I can only have ideas, I could try.

25:22

Yeah. Something that I'm really interested in is that kind of interplay between drawing and writing and how children begin communication. On paper through drawing and then evolves to writing. I mean, and we almost cut the ties between those two.'cause in the earliest, children are kind of into switching in between thinking and pictures, drawing and pictures writing in words. And that's all kind of merged together as a single form of communication that we move children away from, um, as they go through the school system. And it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently.

Neill Cameron 25:54

Yeah, it's, it's madness. Like it's, it's such a natural part of how, it's such a natural part of how we come to writing. And why do we think that that should then be put away? Why don't we just develop and encourage that, why? Why don't we acknowledge that using words and pictures together is more powerful and potentially more complicated, but also more natural to how our brains work. You know?

Lucy SB 26:16

And how we predominantly communicate, like in terms of thinking about of social media advertising, all touch, like there it is generally words and images together that we're surrounded by now much more than, you know, technology has allowed that

Neill Cameron 26:31

completely., I think acknowledging the increasing sort of primacy of visual literacy and how you tie that together with teaching literacy skills is, is, a real challenge for the next 10, 20 years. You know, picture picture's good to sum up

Lucy SB 26:50

yeah, picture's good. Words good as well. Uh, not as good. If you are a donut, what donut would you be, or Which donut do you most identify with out of your donut creations? You could

Neill Cameron 27:04

Oh, well well, there is one little donut who he doesn't appear very much, but he will appear in like, the background of a particularly sort of complicated giant double page spread. Or one of these ones where I've drawn like all the characters and all the bagels having a giant fight or something. there is a little meal donut. there's a little donut

Lucy SB 27:22

is there. Well, that's cheating. You can't say, if I was a donor, I'd be the one that I drew in my likeness.

Neill Cameron 27:28

Well, no, because he's always, he's always there in the corner of a big complicated double page spread, holding a pen and looking really tired. And that's so I do identify with him.

Lucy SB 27:37

A tired slumping donut.

Neill Cameron 27:39

the kids do ask sort of who my favorite donor is quite a lot these days. And the, the answer I give them is the, I think anxiety donor is my favorite character. Partly because he's just one of the few ones who can actually speak in like complete sentences and not just turn up and yell his own catchphrase, you know? Which is very helpful as a writer if you're trying to hang a plot off someone. To have them the ability to speak in complete sentences is useful. But also because he's, he suffers from anxiety. He's really stressed out a all the time. He finds a lot of life very difficult and stressful, but he always turns up and does the thing anyway, even though it is causing him to freak out beforehand. And I think that is quite admirable and quite relatable. And so I suppose anxiety donor is the don I feel the most kinship with. And I hope that that comes across and. I think, you know, there was some nervousness maybe from editors at first that it was like I was, the joke was we are laughing at people who suffer from Anxiety. and that, that we are laughing at kids who experience anxiety. And I hope it's clear that that is not, that, certainly not the intention of that joke, you know? Or if it is, it's like, if it's a joke from the inside out, you know,

Lucy SB 28:57

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that's so great about Mega Robbo, bro is I always say this when I'm pitching that everyone should read Mega Robbo, bro.'cause it's always when I'm asked, I'm always like, it's my favorites. Is that well, anything that's about robots is really about humanity, isn't it? And what it means to be human. And I feel like that the donuts are becoming, that didn't take long for before, before it was an allegory of our times.

Neill Cameron 29:22

Yeah. Any story about donuts is really about humans.

Lucy SB 29:27

humanity. Yeah. exactly. I'd love to hear, so you've got January, you, you're starting the year strong with a book straight away. What's the rest of your year gonna pan out? Like any big other moments?

Neill Cameron 29:42

Yeah, there's, There, there's a lot of festivals and stuff booked. I'm pretty much like, I'm pretty much booked solid through 2026 now already, which is cool, but also slightly alarming.'Cause we are trying to do it in a slightly more organized way this year because I, I, I said yes to too much stuff this year because sort of things come up in a very ad hoc way and you're like, oh yeah, that sounds fun. Oh yeah, that'd be cool. Yeah, that we should do that one. And so I say yes to a lot of things and then I go two and a half like months without having a single day off. Like sort of every weekend, working all through the weekend doing events or working on the way back from events. It's, and it's um, that's not good for people. It's not sustainable, No. exactly. So I'm trying to, that's why we're trying to take a slightly more joined up approach next year and consider what are the things that would be cool to do, but also what is it? Amount of work that one human being should, like, should try and do.

Lucy SB 30:45

yeah,

Neill Cameron 30:46

So and we were going through, but it's, it's hard because I'm not, I don't, I kind of don't like having stuff planned in that much, you know? I'm not a natural planner in that way. I was, I was talking to someone at the, the Story Museum where I do the monthly comics club. And we were,'cause you know, all this other stuff in the calendar, I had to make sure we had dates for comics club, sort of amongst all that. And which, so we were going through and blocking out dates for that. And we got as far as December, 2026. And and she said to me, should we, do you wanna carry on into 2027? And I was like, no, I can't, like, I can't mentally and emotionally have dates in the calendar for January, 2027.'cause that just feels like, ah, that, that feels very scary to me. And. Like, if I, the second I book things in for January, 2027, I'm gonna walk out the front door and get hit by a bus. You know, that's just, it's just obvious to me that that's what would happen. Why, why can't other people see that? What was your question? Fun things coming up.

Lucy SB 31:46

What have you got on? Yeah.

Neill Cameron 31:47

Yeah. So I mean, donut squad every week forever. The, then we've got, so the next Donut squad book will be out later in the year, book three, which is a big, weird, mad, convoluted time travel story that

Lucy SB 32:00

And so that's already been created and is done in the bank.

Neill Cameron 32:04

Well, the, I mean, it's all material that exists from the Phoenix, but like the job of then converting It into a book is not done.

Lucy SB 32:12

Do you do that or does somebody else Do that

Neill Cameron 32:15

We've got people at the, at Phoenix and d ffe sort of helping out on that, now because, that one should be relatively easy. The trouble is that, like donuts quote it, in theory, it's very easy to convert from Phoenix to a book much more so than some of the other stuff we do because it's, it's for panel gag strips. So you just change it from being like a one by four grid to being a two by two grid and it's pager comics. Unfortunately, we then do all these things with characters escaping out of the panel borders and going on a little adventure through other strips in the Phoenix and, you know, all these meta shenanigans, which then become impossible to like, to do in book form because you, you are, you are literally playing on all the, the structure and format of the weekly comic in a way that's so fun to do and so exciting I think for readers of that weekly comic who know those structure so well and that's the joy of it. But then trying to make that stuff work as a book where. Those rhythms and the structure literally do not exist. And so you have to sort of come up with alternate versions and sort of new, new concepts that will be as fun and playful and exciting, hopefully in book context as those things were in the Phoenix context, which is really good. And what we've done in book two, I'm so delighted with what we've done and I can't wait for people to read it, but it is, it's quite challenging. it's it's a little bit challenging. Yeah. So yeah, so book three and book four of Donut scored the, the comics exist, but turning'em into books is, is the challenge. But then in October the plan is we've got a new edition of how to Make Awesome Comics coming out. A new sort of version of that book, which is a book I did years ago, which was in the sort of very early days of the Phoenix. Which the book as, as the name suggests, it's a book about how to make comics for, for kids who read comics. And yeah, with, so we're doing a new version. It's been sort of reformatted and I've taken the opportunity to sort of just polish it up a bit cause

Lucy SB 34:10

have you, are there learnings from your comics, your comics club that have gone into that kind of

Neill Cameron 34:15

yeah, completely that, because,'cause that's the thing like I, I, I made this series and then book about how to make awesome comics. When I really hadn't made that many comics and I'd done maybe like one workshop with some kids once. And so the, the in, in retrospect, the kind of sheer hubris of thinking I'll just make a book telling kids how to make comics is, is sort of amazing to me. I'm impressed with younger Neil for having, having the, the chutzpah to do that. I have now since spent 15 years making comics and working with kids, like make, helping them make comics a lot. And so I can't, there were a few things I was like, yeah, I think, I just think I know a slightly better way to communicate at this point now. I've been sort of physically restrained and sort of wrestled back from doing a complete page one rewrite, which is maybe sort of what my instincts were.'cause people are like, no, there's, there's actually a lot of good in this book. You don't need to, I think we all feel a bit weird about stuff we drew years ago and like the, I always have that impulse that, oh, I'll just start from scratch. It'll be easier. But no, so it's we, we've tuned it up and polished it up and yeah, applied the knowledge of lo these past many years. But it is fundamentally the same book.'cause there was actually some quite good stuff in there. I'm I'm reluctantly forced to admit. One thing I'm very excited. I'm going to be going over to Japan to do some sort of comics workshops in schools with the organizers of the comic art festival in the lakes. Who were the guys who organized the, the Brussels trip I went on this year. So I'm very excited about that. That's a bit of a, that's a bit of a lifelong dream come true.

Lucy SB 35:52

That's really exciting. Have you ever been to Japan before?

Neill Cameron 35:54

I have, yeah. Yeah. But like not for a long, long time. And the, the thought of being able to go there and do my job is really exciting to me. Like I I like visiting places, but I really like visiting places and, and working with kids, you know, and sort of doing my job and drawing things and communicating and sharing ideas and, you know, making comics with people and getting to do that over in Japan is just a, that's so exciting to me. I'm like, I can't wait.

Lucy SB 36:22

Yeah. That's really, that's really exciting. The lakes International Comics Art Festival and the, like they do is just, yeah, it's really cool.

Neill Cameron 36:28

Is amazing. They do so much and they do so much that I don't think people even know about and that they don't shout about that much, but they're, they're

Lucy SB 36:34

Yeah, lots of their kind of work that goes on outside of the festival, that kind of outreach work. I'm involved in a, they're doing a project comics Potential Two which is about improving teacher knowledge of comics and not working with like initial teacher training university to

Neill Cameron 36:49

Oh, cool.

Lucy SB 36:50

yeah, some like input around using comics and education in the teacher training right from the start of pupil's career. That's really cool. Yeah. That's a cool project.

Neill Cameron 36:58

young. That's what we need to do. Yeah.

Lucy SB 37:00

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that's something that's happening across next year as well. And then is there, there's the Phoenix Fest in the spring. So you had one at, you had one at Lakes this year.

Neill Cameron 37:11

this year was like a mini Phoenix fest. It was. It was the lakes, basically, but there was a sort of Phoenix encampment at the lake, so it was lovely, but it was quite compared to the Phoenix Fest the year before in Oxford, which was. Wild. The Lakes one was quite small and chill and like lovely. But so for this year it's back in Oxford and it's gonna be by all accounts, like even Wilder, it's gonna be huge. It's sort of taking over half of Oxford City Center. So it's gonna be like across multiple venues and sort of lots of different events happening.'Cause the,'cause the trouble with Phoenix Fest has since its inception has been that they plan the biggest thing they can possibly do, and then they tell people about it and then it sells out in five minutes and everyone gets mad at us.

Lucy SB 37:55

Glastonbury. Yeah.

Neill Cameron 37:56

Yeah.

Lucy SB 37:57

Yeah.

Neill Cameron 37:58

So they're, they're, they're trying to sort of expand capacity and make sure as many people can be a part of it as possible. Probably still so in five minutes and people will be mad at us, but you know, what can you do? seems like that

Lucy SB 38:08

success, that's the

Neill Cameron 38:09

that's always gonna happen. Yeah. The other big thing I guess that I'm working on and that I think will be a big part of next year is, is Col a collaboration. It's the comic that I make with my son that we do for the Phoenix now called the Villanoos, which is like a comic he's been making since he was eight or nine and has now ended up through a long and convoluted sort of series of unlikely events becoming my job to draw my son's weird comics. But because he, he's 18 now and he's he may not be just sitting around living in my house. Free to write comics for me forever. So uh, we're sort of wanting to make the most of that while we've got'em here and get as much, get as much villanoos drawn as we can.'cause as, as a weird thing that's come about by accident, we're now just all loving it and all really excited about it and talking about maybe putting together books a bit. And it it is, it is. It's got, it's, yeah, it's really exciting and it's such a fun thing to make for lots of reasons.'cause I get to draw spaceships and explosions. But also it's still in that sort of quite silly, funny Milia. So it's kind the best of both worlds. But also it's just, I get to, I get to make a thing with my kid and we get to, I've engineered a situation whereby my teenage son still wants to talk to me.'cause we can just talk about aliens and explosions and stuff. And somehow we can still communicate that way,

Lucy SB 39:33

Perfect.

Neill Cameron 39:34

is very delightful to me.

Lucy SB 39:35

And is it something that he's interested in doing and is sort of like future life or is it like just a side project for him

Neill Cameron 39:41

I mean, you know, I, I wouldn't want to speak for him, but I will. He's, he's not very, he's not a very practically minded young man in some ways, and he is not very good at thinking about the future in, in realistic and sort of career focused ways maybe. But he is just, he just is a writer. He just, like, I, I find he writes just all the time, and if I don't, if we're not capturing it and sort of bottling it and making comics outta it this way, he's just gonna be writing long, complex, novel cycles that no one else will ever actually read. And so I, and I think one way or another, he will end up being a writer and I dunno what sort, sort of shape or form that might take, but I'm en I'm enjoying sort of riding his coattails while I can still, while I can still grab onto them, you know.

Lucy SB 40:27

Yeah. That's amazing. What a great thing to do together. cool.

Neill Cameron 40:32

I think people who don't work for weekly comic have more exciting answers to the question, like, what are you doing next year? It's like they'll have one or two big, exciting new projects, but what I'm doing is drawing the Phoenix every week, you know? Uh, and so I kind of, Yeah. which is great from a sort of regularity of work point of view and great from a creative point of view, but not a very exciting answer to the question. So what have you got coming up like the Phoenix.

Lucy SB 40:56

And do you find some, do, is the pressure good? The, the pressure of producing weekly Good. For you?

Neill Cameron 41:01

Oh, I think it's great for me. I think like I've been doing it for however long the Phoenix has been around now, which is like 14 years or so. And if anything I'm more double down at this point. I'm like, no, I'm, every week. I used to sort of draw things and then go away for a bit and then draw some more things and then go away for a bit. But now, like, it's literally every week. And I think it's great for me'cause I, I think like before, before I had the need to be this disciplined, I would really struggle. Sort of committing to an idea or, you know, struggle with finishing things. You know, like, and sort of, you'd get a few pages in and they'd go, oh, I dunno, I'm not feeling this. Or, oh, I think, oh, I've had a much better idea of how I could do this and I'm gonna go in, sort of start again and redraw and sort of great grand visions and plans and ambitions that never maybe anyone actually got to read.'cause I only ever got four pages into them before fizzling out. You know, and when you have a weekly deadline and you have to finish things and you have no choice about that, it means you do finish things. And I think that's one of the best things you can do as a creator. I'm always telling this to, to young people that are starting out, is to finish things and let people read them, you know?

Lucy SB 42:15

Yeah. Don't overthink.

Neill Cameron 42:16

don't overthink and don't go too mad with your vision for what This, the, the scale of this thing. You know, like tell a story. In a form and at a scale that you can achieve and finish. Don't necessarily dive straight in with your 20 volume manga inspired graphic novel cycle.'cause there's a very good chance that by the time you get to even finishing the first book of that, you will have completely changed your style and tastes and what you want to do. so maybe just start start with a short story. Start with, start with a four panel gag strip and then see what that prompts you to, and sort of let things build more organically that way, you know. But I think actually finishing things gives you, gives you a sense of achievement and, you know, self belief and letting people read them reinforces that. Whereas and that can be really helpful because you, you come to sort of trust yourself and believe in yourself as an artist in a way that if it's just just you in a room and. You, you're working on a great big thing, but you never actually finish it. That's, that doesn't do a lot for your self-belief. That can be quite damaging to your self-belief, you know? So I think start small and build up is a good rule of thumb. And I feel very lucky to have that weekly deadline.'cause it's what we enforces that, you know,

Lucy SB 43:35

That's great. Well look at, you've got all profound right at the end there.

Neill Cameron 43:38

Yeah.

Lucy SB 43:38

Yeah.

Neill Cameron 43:40

There we go. I say make work. That in, make that sound like it came outta what we were

Lucy SB 43:44

Yeah.

Neill Cameron 43:48

off the Yeah,

Lucy SB 43:51

Thank you so much for your time. It's been great. We normally do at the end of the podcast if we were to add one book to our two B read pile and comic what comic would you recommend that we went away and read? You've already given some recommendations at the top. Do you wanna repeat one of those or do you want to go for something new and different to end

Neill Cameron 44:12

I struggle to think of a better recommendation than, than Goman honestly. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm Team Goman. I love it to bits. If, if I was to recommend something

Lucy SB 44:24

It's really stylish too. Like I love the style of the drawing is really cool.

Neill Cameron 44:27

Just so cool. Just on, on a style level, on a, just on a just sheer technical skill level, it's stunning. Like he's an incredibly, incredibly good artist in, in all the ways. You know, like some people have a beautiful style, but like, and that carries you past the fact that the drawing fundamentals aren't, you know, but this guy's, he's just rock solid on every front. I love it. It's, it's just a joy. If I was to recommend something completely different that isn't sort of necessarily for the kid, I mean, probably certainly isn't for the kid kid reading. But there's a, there's an article called Paul Rainey who had a couple of graphic novels out, I think, I think start of this year. It might even be last year. I dunno, I'm not very in tune with things. But he did one called there's no time like the present, and he did one called, why Don't You Love Me? I think it was called,

Lucy SB 45:18

Mm. That's the one that I can picture the cover of. I haven't read either, though.

Neill Cameron 45:21

They're really amazing comics and they both sort of use the form to do to just the very surprising things and take you to places sort of emotionally and just in terms of the narrative that you would not see coming in a million years. And, and both are very, very funny. And I think I, I like comics that, that do both, you know? So I would, I would definitely recommend those. Maybe more for the grownups

Lucy SB 45:44

Brilliant. Thank you. That's great. It's great to have some growing up reading too. Usually as a family, go to the lakes and go to the festival, but we didn't go this year and I kind of missed my, basically spending an absolute fortune on comics and coming back with a massive stack and exploring loads of new stuff.

Neill Cameron 45:59

Yeah.

Lucy SB 46:00

that injection of, of new stuff.

Neill Cameron 46:02

Well, that, that's what Thought Bubble does for me. yeah, And that's why, that's why Thought Bubble was such a sort of injection of new stuff and of Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Comics are great. That, you know, it's, it's really important to get out of your own little corner, I think, and, and read more widely and realize, oh yeah, there's all this different stuff going on. There's, there's so much to, to be shouting about.

Lucy SB 46:23

Absolutely. Well thank you so much. It's been brilliant chatting to you. As always. Yeah, exciting to see all this donut stuff next year. It's been brilliant to see the success of that. it's a really nice chatting.

Neill Cameron 46:35

No talk To you. Yeah.

46:38

There you have it. Thank you Neil, for being such a brilliant returning guest. It's been fascinating to hear about how your career's developed since the last time we spoke to you. I've read Goman now. Christmas has passed as I'm sure you, are aware. And I was able to give that book to my son, which means I could finally read it. And I loved it. Yeah, so really, chime in with Neil on his recommendation of Goman by Hamish Steel. My recommendation, something that I've been reading lately, a YA book that has just won an award in America, the a LA award, a graphic novel called Raised by Ghosts by Brianna Loon. Really beautiful, evocative, nostalgic, teen fiction about friends. Actually, it's a bit more of a memoir, I think, than fiction. A poignant snapshot of a moment in time in the nineties speaks to me, obviously as someone who was a teenager in the nineties, passing notes between friends in high school. The text in the, in the graphic novel, appears in the form of notes, either diaries to herself or notes that she's passed to. Friends. beautiful, beautiful approach to artwork and some really interesting sequences of pure imagery for you to kind of really get your teeth into and interpret the what's going on in Brianna's. Inner world in the story during this, this peak time of change, in our adolescence. So it's, it's very, very beautifully told, and very nostalgic for the nineties Ya graphic novel that's raised by ghosts, by Brianna Lowen. So really recommend that. And I'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. That's it from me. Thank you so much for coming back after such a long break, and listening to this episode of the podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. I felt like I was a bit rusty, but on that episode, but thank goodness Neil wasn't. Neil was just an absolute delight of a guest to have on. so he saved my rustiness and, and made it a good episode regardless. you can follow the podcast on Instagram, on Blue Sky, and you can still find us on Twitter, at Lucy bravely, although, I absolutely am not engaging on X anymore. But the podcast is still there under my, under my username on X. But my preference would be for us to meet via different platforms. So I'll be posting more on those other platforms that I have mentioned. you can also reach out. If you'd like to make a comment or give some feedback, there's an email address in the show notes and there's also a facility on the, comic boom.co uk website where you can, leave a comment based on an episode there as well, and I can access that. So thank you so much for listening. I hope you have a good week and we'll be back, very shortly with a new episode about yo comics. A child focused. Comics and zine fair happening in London, and we'll be talking all things how to make your own comics fair. So I think that'll be really interesting and something that could get some exciting activity happening for children and young people, wherever you are based. That's all for me for now though. Thanks for listening.