Comic Boom - Comics in Education
An education podcast exploring the use of comics in education. Each episode I’ll be joined by a special guest from a wide range of backgrounds, from passionate education professionals to academics and industry experts. I'll be exploring a wide range of perspectives in the search for information and inspiration. Listen in if you’d like to grow your understanding of the theory behind comics, discover the most effective approaches to using comics and graphic novels in your classroom and gain inspiration from passionate comics creators.
This season of Comic Boom is sponsored by ALCS, The Authors' Licensing and Collecting Society! Find out more about their work at www.alcs.co.uk
Comic Boom - Comics in Education
Comic Boom - Comics in Education with Jamie Smart
In this episode Lucy chats to comic book artist, writer and illustrator Jamie Smart
It feels he needs no introduction! I celebrate 50* episodes of comic boom, with the one, the only, Jamie Smart. Jamie’s characters and the colourful worlds they inhabit have graced the pages of many a national institutions; The Dandy, The Beano, The DFC and The Phoenix. His long running weekly strip 'Bunny Vs Monkey' is still going strong in The Phoenix and is collated into the hugely popular, best selling and multi-award winning Bunny vs Monkey books.
This episode of Comic Boom is sponsored by ALCS, The Authors Licensing and Collecting Society.
*Actually 49...ooops! #notthe50thepisode
Lucy's recommendation:
Anzu and the Realm of Darkness by Mai K. Nguyen
Connect with Jamie:
X: @Jamiesmart
Bluesky: jamiesmart
Follow the podcast:
Insta: @comic_boom_podcast
Twitter/X: @Lucy_Braidley
Contact: comicboompodcast@gmail.com
Hello and welcome to Comic Boom, the Comics and Education podcast. If you are interested in hearing more about the crossover between comics and education, then this is the podcast for you. My name is Lucy Starbuck Braidley, and each week I'll be joined by a fellow educator, a librarian, an academic, or a creator of comics, to discuss their journey into comics and provide some inspiration to influence your practice and hopefully shine some light on some titles you can bring into your libraries, classrooms, and your bookshelves at home too. This episode of Comic Boom is sponsored by A LCS, the author's licensing and Collecting Society, and today I can hardly contain my excitement. We celebrate 50 episodes of Comic Boom, and I am joined by the one, the only, Jamie Smart. I am sure you all know Jamie's characters and the colorful worlds. They inhabit his comics of delighted children for decades. In the pages of national institutions such as The Dandy, the Beano, DFC, and the Phoenix, his long running weekly comic strip bunny versus monkey is still going strong in the Phoenix and of course has been collated into hugely popular bestselling award-winning bunny versus monkey books. I'm a huge fan of his work personally, and he is also, I have now found out just a really lovely person to chat to. really generous with his time talking about his work and, and his background, his approach to creating, I found it an absolutely. Fascinating conversation. We talked about, bunny versus monkey about his early career. We talk about the audio book There's just one, best audio book in the, nippy awards that just this week. There's just so much to cover. I think you're really gonna enjoy this one. Here's what Jamie had to say.
Lucy SB:Hello Jamie. Welcome to Comic Boom.
Jamie Smart:Hi. Thank you for having me.
Lucy SB:You are very welcome. It is very exciting to have you here. Dreamed of having you on the show, so it's brilliant that you are so generous of your time and have accepted. So thank you very much.
Jamie Smart:No, you're very kind. As I said, I've been listening to a lot of them and, uh, I think you're doing amazing work. So I was honored. I'm, I'm, I'm the, I'm the excited one here.
Lucy SB:first of all, I always like to get guests to tell us a little bit about your journey as a comics reader. When did you start becoming aware of comics as a form, and how did that love start for you? I.
Jamie Smart:Uh, I mean, it's hard to put an age on it, isn't it? But I just, as long as I can remember when I was very, very young, my dad used to drive me to the news agents every Sunday morning, like at the crack of dawn when they were still offloading the newspapers off the vans to put them on the shelves. And so you'd go in and you couldn't really get round the news agent'cause there were so many bundles of newspapers all over the place. Um. And I just, I, that's always stuck with me. That was such an exciting place to be. All the smells of the newsprint and the sweets and the blackjacks and the fruit salads and whatever. So I'd go there and I'd, I'd get all the comics I could, I could get my hands on. And there were a lot back in the eighties that you could buy just off the shelves. so that was really exciting that, that. Really instilled it in me, I think. And I had a few friends at school who were really into'em as well. So we'd, we'd swap and talk about'em a lot and draw our own cartoons and, uh, yeah. So it's, it's, it's always been there. Back then it was like Wizard and Chips and Buster and, um, the Dandy and Oink and, topper, uh, even girls comics like Mandy and things like that. Like I used to just consume all of them. I just. They were so fun and it felt like my little world, it felt like somewhere I could inhabit away from the real world. So, uh, yeah, I've always felt at home, very at home with comics.
Lucy SB:What do you think it was that that pulled you in? Was it storytelling? Was it the imagery or was it that essential combination of both Really. I.
Jamie Smart:Uh, I think. I mean, there's all of that. I think what comics do really well is the spontaneity, and especially when you have a weekly comic and it has 10, 12 different characters in it and each of them has like two pages or something. for a child that works really well because. You're going like, bam, here's a story, and bam, here's a different story and here's a different, and, and so you are jumping from story to story and it's just very quick bursts of, of just silliness basically. Uh, and I think that's what really appealed to me. Like every page you turned, you didn't know what sort of crazy character there'd been next. Uh, and that. Also is, has kind of fed into me. Like I don't have the longest attention span as an adult, which is why I do very short comics as well. but often that's what you want. You just wanna pick something up and put it down and, and, and I think that's, uh, again, that's what comics do really well.
Lucy SB:And do you think that, so you spoke a little bit as well, like about your friend friends reading them, and something that I kind of observe, that it seems a bit distinct for comics versus other books, which is that they do tend to get passed around or shared, or. Immediately a kind of community builds up around around a comic that I think sometimes happens with kind of other children's literature, but not to the same extent. It's not, it, it's kind of a rare event. When something becomes very culturally significant to children. That's, that started as a book without it going into like being a film. but when comics in my classroom certainly would straight away be shared, passed around. That sort of idea of community was that part of it too, do you think?
Jamie Smart:The, the most satisfying thing to see when, when kids bring their copies of bunny vs monkey up for me to sign is the most satisfying thing is when it's a really battered dog-eared
Lucy SB:Yeah.
Jamie Smart:it's, it's clearly been read and it's been passed around and everyone's borrowed it. And that's just so exciting.'cause for me, one of the best things about comics as a medium, as a, as a printed, uh, weekly medium as it was, was that. They felt disposable. They felt like you would stuff them in the bottom of your school bag or, you know, you'd pass'em around or even that you'd drawn on them yourselves or you'd tear them up and make your own collages out of them. That it is that disposable nature that I, that I really, really identified with. And even as I got older into my twenties and thirties, and I was, and my friends were, you know, collecting, uh, comic comics as in, you know, the, the more traditional Marvel or DC sort. Um, and they were keeping them bagged and, and boarded and, and careful boxes and sort of locked away. And I just, I even then, I couldn't understand that. I thought, no, comics are an amazing, uh, medium for just. Tearing apart and breaking and, and I, I know that's sacrilege to a lot of people, but for me it is just that disposable nature is, is really appealing.
Lucy SB:Yeah. That's so interesting. And so you're talking about getting older. What sort of things are you now reading? What are you seeing out there that really appeals to you as a reader now?
Jamie Smart:Oh, it's still, it's still children's comics. I, I don't really, I read a few sort of more grownup comics here and there, but mostly it's, it is children's comics. I don't get a lot of time to read. Most of what I read is things I get sent, like advances or people wanting quotes for things or, so that gives me a, a really good opportunity to see sort of what's coming out and what's on the way. I mean, the last. The last amazing thing I saw was, donut Squad, Neil Cameron's donut squad, which is, I
Lucy SB:Weird donut squad. Mad. I haven't seen the, but only, I've only seen the strips in, in the Phoenix. But
Jamie Smart:um, as
Lucy SB:household loves donut
Jamie Smart:Scott. It's, well, that's the thing. I I, I think it's gonna be absolutely huge'cause it's, it's just perfect for kids. It's, it's that kind of pick up and put down nature. It's all these millions of different characters and all these variations. and that's why it appeals to me because I, I don't have the concentration to, to follow a very long story arc and, you know, stick with, stick with more grown up sort of graphic novels. I prefer the. The immediacy of kids comics. So that's, that's kind of what I'm reading. If I'm not reading kids comics, I'm reading like ghost stories or things like that. Uh, more grownup books. that's kind of what I prefer. but that, that middle ground of, of grownup graphic novels, I don't, yeah, I don't really read enough of them. I should do.
Lucy SB:That's super interesting. I'm really into, like, I really like autobiographical comics written by women. A quite serious subject matter, often quite a lot of trauma involved, but they're really beautiful. I really like that, but I also really like reading children's comics as well, and I don't just do that because of the podcast or because my children, I really like,
Jamie Smart:well, you need the, you need the, the different tones, don't you? And that's, that's where comics really come into their own, because you can tell very serious, weighty subjects and you can also do fart jokes and bum jokes and, and, and, and all, and everything in between. and all of it is valid and it all comes under this umbrella of comics. and I think that's kind of been neglected for quite a while, that it's, it's a really. Important vital source of, you know, people expressing themselves.
Lucy SB:Yeah, that breadth gets missed quite a lot in the conversations. Like if I tell people I like comics, they quite often the assumption is I'm talking about super hero comics. Yeah. Which I don't really know very much about at all. Making your own comic strips as a child, is that something that you just kept doing and never stopped? Was there a time in your life where that kind of dropped off and then you picked it back up? how do we join the dots from Jamie as a child to Jamie now?
Jamie Smart:I remember always drawing pictures like from 2, 3, 4. I've got, pictures from a long time ago and I would assume that I was always drawing pictures. And then when I found comics at an early age that then kind of. Made me think, oh, well these pictures could then go into comics. And so I think the, the two things, the reading and the creating, I think they just kind of mulch together and they, they become one it just, it always seemed a very natural thing to do, to try and if, if you are shown an example of what you can do with something you've already been doing, that, that can be quite mind blowing, especially for someone very, very young. so yeah, I've always, I feel like I've always drawn comics, I was listening to one of your interviews recently where they were you, you were talking about Snoopy a lot and I, I liked Snoopy, but I always preferred Garfield. I was,'cause Garfield was slightly more mainstream and a bit more, obvious perhaps it didn't have the subtleties that Snoopy had. but I used to really, really love Garfield and me and my friend Steven used to trace. the images of Garfield out the book and then turn the tracing paper over and then rub on the other side technique. Yeah. So, so, and slowly we'd be making our own Garfield comics out, you know, basically copying Garfield. that made us feel like, oh, we are professional comic artist now. I mean, obviously we weren't, but, uh, that, that was where it started to become, kind of industrial, I guess, kind of. Like, oh, we could, we could churn these out. We could make loads and
Lucy SB:Mm-hmm.
Jamie Smart:and yeah, it's, it's, it's a journey. As you go along, you, you get better and better and you, you love it more and more. And, and soon you wouldn't know how to do anything else. So,
Lucy SB:And how did you, what was your kind of first big break into having something published? I.
Jamie Smart:Uh, when I was at, uh, I left school at 15 and I went to art college for two years and then a different art college for another two years. Um, and I was fortunate with those art colleges that my tutors were big fans of comics and they, and so basically they said, look, if you want to, oh, these were graphic design courses and I'm terrible at graphic design, but it just, it was the nearest thing I could find to doing art of some sort. And they said, look, if you, if you wanna lean into comics for, for this course, that's absolutely fine. Because obviously that's what you want to do. and so they let me basically my end of course, final show was basically a comic strip I'd come up with and, and kind of all these decorations around it and things like that. And a friend's dad saw it and it turned out he published a magazine, a cookery magazine, and he said to me, do you want to draw a comic strip every week? And I found them again recently and they're, they're not very readable'cause they're kind of hand painted little comic strips. It was called Whistle Whale and Flea. And they were. Food importers. There's like this big guy in a chef's outfit and a cat, and they were just basically sassy to each other. and yeah, they were hand painted in gouache and ink and. They didn't print very well. but I dunno, he seemed to like them and he seemed to keep running them. But that was the first time I went into WH Smith and, and, and found my comic in a, in a printed magazine, and that was so exciting. So I would've been about 18 or 19, I think when
Lucy SB:so cool. And then how did bunny versus monkey and the Phoenix start, how long after that did that happen?
Jamie Smart:well, it's always, so I've always worked a lot on my own comics and my own ideas, and not just in comics, but like greetings cards. I'd come up with a range and I'd, I'd send them out. this was in the old days before email. I'd send them out in manila envelopes to just every company I could think of. And when I'd done that, I'd then. Be coming up with another comic that I'd then send out to every publisher I could find, and, and it was just a continual cycle of. Yeah. Uh, I'm, I'm really excited about making these things. Would, would you wanna print them? Um, and obviously most people say no. I mean, it's the slew of rejections, but I didn't really mind rejections never really bothered me because by the time someone had rejected me, I was already working on something else. Anyway, so it was just carrying on all the time. so I've always, always, always been sending my work out. and so my first, I think my first comics, comics sort of gig was, uh, the fun day times. I managed to do a, a strip called Space Row in the Fun Day Times, which was, a dream for me. And then that. I dunno if that led directly to working for the Dandy, but certainly somewhere alongside it I started working for The Dandy as well. and then I heard about this comic called the DFC, which was the original version of the Phoenix or, or a precursor to it. but I was under contract to a TV company at the time where I wasn't allowed to pitch original ideas to other places. So I couldn't, there wasn't much I could do for the DFC, but fortunately we found a way around it and I, I ended up doing a strip called Fish Head, Steve, for that. And then when the Phoenix came back around, I said, well, I've got this other idea that I was kind of pushing around as a book that I think would be really good. And that was Bunny verse Monkey. And, and yeah, they went for it.
Lucy SB:And it just seems to me like when I think, before I approached you to interview, I felt quite intimidated, but it wasn't because how famous you are. Um, it wasn't'cause of your success. I think it's because of the, I. Just the amount of work, like what sort of person has the brain that can just create all this stuff constantly. It's kind of like, it's, it's amazing. So I'm really interested in how, and you've kind of just been talking, you know, constantly having ideas. What is the day in your life of like, you know, how do you, what does your creative process look like?'cause it just seems you have so much great stuff coming out all the time.
Jamie Smart:Thank you. I'll be honest, I think it is too much at the moment. I think I've kind of got myself to a point where I'm trying to do too many different projects. and my publisher's really sympathetic and helpful. It's not them at all. It's me. It's, it's just the excitement of wanting to make things all the time. and I think I need to tail it off a bit. I think maybe over the next year or two, I need to finish a few big projects and, and just kind of have a few days off here and
Lucy SB:Still meditating.
Jamie Smart:Yeah, exactly. but as for sort of up till now, it's always, it's just been so exciting to do. And that's, that's all I can say about it. It's just, especially through my twenties. I remember waking up, uh, this was back in the days of dial up, so you could only check the internet up until, what was it, eight or 9:00 AM and then it got really expensive. So you, you didn't, you didn't use the internet all day. So I'd wake up really early and I'd check the internet and emails. and then that was it. And then I had had a whole day working and I'd work through till. Nine or 10 in the evening. And it's, and that's not healthy, and I'm not saying anyone should do it, but it was just, I was buzzing. I was so excited to just be making things, even if I didn't have a publisher for them or, or anything even before the internet where you, you are getting some kind of instant gratification from people liking your work. it was just It was, maybe it was partly emulating what I'd seen. So when you grow up reading comics in your head, you think, oh, that'd be amazing to do when I'm an adult. So you are, you are trying to, it feels like a kind of dream come true that you are doing the thing that you loved when you were growing up. but I dunno, I just, I'm, yeah, I'm thrilled, constantly excited to be doing this. So that's, that's what drives me.
Lucy SB:And was it easier, do you think, in the, in those earlier days when you only had the internet for an hour and then there were, were there fewer distractions then? And then also now I'm thinking with the, your popularity must have a lot of kind of press things or publisher things and other stuff going on. Is it harder to get into your kind of creative zone now?
Jamie Smart:Yeah, definitely. There's, I mean, I, I feel very privileged to be where I am now, and I, I wouldn't knock it at all. But you do, you get asked to do a lot of things, and they might be festivals or workshops or things like that. most, 99% of which I, I just, I can't do. but you do also get asked a lot of, other things. It's a privilege to do it, but it feels more on the admin side of things, whereas you think, well, I, I wanted to be a comic artist to make comics, and if I keep jumping into the mind space of doing these press events or, or whatever, I. Then that's time away from comics. And then it takes a little time for your brain to kind of sink back into comic mode and, and making stuff. And as a result, you can lose a few days just over a, a couple of hours of writing an article or something. Um, again, that's something I, I tend to sort of shy away from where possible. I, I try not to do these things because I don't feel like I have enough time to do all the things I wanna do anyway. So I need to, I need a bit better time management on it all.
Lucy SB:I think it's really interesting, um, in the context of school and education as well.'cause quite often we're expecting children to do things like writing or creating stories in very specific chunks of time. And it's like, right, get your English books out, write the beginning of your story and then you're not, you're gonna write the middle tomorrow and the ending on the next day. And that's actually quite a hard thing to do to like do that on the clock.
Jamie Smart:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I, if I, you can, well, I can tell the difference in my comics between one that I wrote on a day when I was really in the zone and one where I just needed to get a comic done. Now I'm hoping readers can't notice that difference, but I can very much see that difference. Yeah. Um, I'd, I'd never just kind of ship it out. I'd never, I'd never put it out unless I was happy with it, but, but I can tell that. You know, especially, uh, like the Looshkin comics. The Looshkin comics are a very different beast for me to write. And they have their own, not their own vocabulary, but they have their own kind of, boundaries and physics to them that I. If I'm not in the right mood to write them, they just do not work. And it just looks like someone trying to be wacky for the sake of being wacky and, oh, let's put a catch phrase here and a fart here, and it, and it's just, it looks very contrived, but they're, but when I'm in the zone and I can do it properly, then it. Then it just sings for me. It absolutely flies, and it's some of my best work. And I'm, I think that was the same when I was at school. There were just some days when if you were trying to write a story, it just, it wasn't working. And the more you pound away at it, the worse it gets. And there are some days when you, when you discover the freedom of creativity rather than, scripted creativity rather than timetabled creativity. on those, and on those times, that's when you, you write your best stuff. That's when you, when you hand in your best work, I think.
Lucy SB:Yeah, for sure. I'm also really interested in a little bit on the same theme that kind of A lot of your work seems very character based. and I think generating character ideas can be really difficult as a teacher to get children to come up with an idea. Do you have any advice on how, how do you come up with your characters or are there any good ways to support children who are developing their own comics?
Jamie Smart:I mean, it's, it sounds like a cliche, but all your best characters are parts of you. You're, you're expressing parts of you. and this is what I always tell kids, is that every character in bunny versus monkey is a part of me. It's an emotion in me that I've just amplified and exaggerated. So Bunny is like a character. He's kind of the sensible anchor of it, but he just wants to be left alone. He doesn't want all this drama. And that's, you know, very much a part of me. Whereas Monkey is this very naughty character, and that's another part of me. It's just I've ballooned it up into this kind of comedic thing. And, and ev every character in between is another part. There's a shy character or there's a reckless character or whatever. and when you do that, when you, when you make them. When you pull them out of yourself, these characters, they become a lot easier to write because you know how they're going to react. Your brain knows how it's gonna react in certain situations. and so, yeah, for me, bunny verse monkey has never. Really been that hard to write because it's, it's therapy for me. It's, it's getting my emotions and thoughts down on the page, anonymously through these characters. And so I get to, I get to speak to the world without saying it directly. so yeah, it's. All my work is very, very personal. but it's just, it's presented in a very mainstream, colorful, easily accessible sort of way. but it does, it, it all comes from the heart very much.
Lucy SB:how do you feel when you get, presumably children show youth, like they've used your characters, but in their own stories. When that first started to happen, what, what was that like?
Jamie Smart:Oh, it's amazing. I mean, it's, it's an honor every time you see it. and it just, it just reminds me of when I was making my Garfield comics as a kid and you know, and then it's, yeah. And then I stuck with it and then made my own characters, isn't it? It's just, yeah, there's, there's no words for it really. It's just, it's mind blowing every time
Lucy SB:And this is the same thing for plot lines do you have a bank or you've got, do you keep a notebook? to kind of grab things when they come to you? Or are you keeping scribbly notes? How do you keep track of, because you, when you've got, I guess that short, short form stories, you need to have quite a lot of different things happening, um, all the time. So yeah. How do you keep track of all
Jamie Smart:of those ideas it's something I, no, I don't, I don't particularly make notes or anything like that. It's, it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently because I've been, become very aware that I've done. Well, there have been 10 bunny vest monkey books, and we've got another three or four in the can already. So, so let's say 14 bunny vs monkey books, and there is a limit. So there, there's a limit to how many times you can tell these stories without repeating yourself, without going back over the same things. Because there, there are themes to all of them. They're, you know, a big monster or let's explore this corner of the woods, or, And I am, I'm very acutely aware of that, and I don't want to do that. And, and every time I sit down and, and write or draw a a bunny versus monkey, my approach is how can I make this fresh? How can I start again? How can I, how can I be rebooting it in this episode and then in the next episode, how can I reboot that, the whole thing a little bit? This time, because the worst thing as a, as a reader is when something gets boring. And, and that's even worse when you are the creator. You don't wanna be making boring work. so no, I, I, I think about that a lot and I'm aware of it. And, I'm also aware that what I do, like any writer or creator sits inside this kind of bubble, this sphere of. All your ideas and, and a, a lot of the new ideas you come up with are just variations on the things you've done already. and I think you have to be aware of that. Like, I, I, I know my, my parameters, I know my corner of, of the children's comic area. You know, these are the things I do. The cute animals, the screaming at each other, the explosions. I, I know these are kind of the things I've honed in on. Um,
Lucy SB:And those are what the readers wanna see as well when they,
Jamie Smart:Yeah. Yeah. And they've been really. And they've been really enjoying
Lucy SB:Mm-hmm.
Jamie Smart:so you want to keep, you want to keep giving them new material, but you, and it has to be true to the material you've done already, but it also has to have some kind of spark to it. It still has to be fresh. and that is, I dunno, I dunno how that's gonna pan out. Maybe at some point I take a little break from Bunny vs Monkey just to give it a bit of space and make sure. I come back to it fresh at the moment, I feel all right at the moment. I feel like the stories are, are going in good places, but I, yeah, you, you have to be careful.
Lucy SB:And do you just go straight into drawing or do you do sort of thumbnails?
Jamie Smart:Yeah, I, I have these notebooks, these small, like lined. Exercise Jotter books basically. And I very roughly thumbnail each panel, through that. And when I say roughly, it's literally like a phone doodle. It's, it's, it's terrible. and that's enough for me to just then go straight onto final pencils or final inks or whatever, because I'm just, I, I'm so used to doing it that way that I don't need to. Plot things out really, really carefully.'cause often when I'm doing the final art, I can be winging it. I can be changing panels here and there if they're not quite working. I see a lot of artists who, who put so much intense work into their roughs and their sketches and, and even the pencils on the page. And, um, I dunno, that looks. That looks really professional to me. That's the only word I can think of that looks like a professional artist working. Whereas, here am I just a happy little idiot, just slamming what, what's funny to me onto a page, and then going onto the next one. And, um, yeah, I, I, I want to work as fast as I can'cause I, I want to get as many ideas out as I can. So I've, I've tried to streamline the process as much as possible and just trust myself that I can, that I can do it when it needs doing.
Lucy SB:I feel like that kind of, comes through because they feel really sort of fluid and in the moment when you are reading them, then they don't feel like, and that's enjoy, but it's kind of got that energy. You know how sometimes when some you something can feel a little bit static,
Jamie Smart:can't it? Yeah, I hope so. And I, I very much think I reach to kids who have short attention spans because I have a short attention span. So I, it has to keep me engaged for two pages, drawing it, because I am. Quite, uh,'cause I am trying to be quite quick with it and like you say it, then that then comes through the page and then when you're reading it, it's a quick read. Um, and I, so I think everyone involved in this transaction is quite happy with, with how it's
Lucy SB:Yeah. Yeah.
Jamie Smart:Yeah.
Lucy SB:I wanted to ask you about one of your other series, max and Chaffey,'cause you've got so many different series. And then I've put a little side note on here that I love Megalomaniacs because I do, and that was brilliant. It made me laugh so much. but Max and Chaffey, my son, my youngest son has just got really into those. and he was. Someone that struggles with reading. And it seemed to me that, it was a very different layout and you can still tell it's your work, but it feels like a different approach. Is that something that you particularly did to make your work more accessible for younger or beginner
Jamie Smart:readers? Are you interested in that Yeah. I wanted to do a strip that was. Younger than Bunny versus monkey. I never know the ages of, you know, where these comics are targeted as for the publisher and the booksellers to work out for me, it's just what's funny and what works. But I did have in mind that, there were still a much younger readers than were into Bunny versus Monkey. and what, what was there for them? What sort of comic books were there for them? And there were one or two around, And that's great, but I thought, well, it would be fun for me to try something like that as well. so Max and Chaffee is very, very simple comicing it is often just two panels on a page. I. One, one or two speech bubbles here or there? it still has a story. It still has a whole cast of characters. But it's presented in a very, the drawings are very simple. The colors are very bright. just little things like, I didn't want to draw borders around the panels like you would normally with a comic. It's, there's, so there's no panel border in the corners are kind of rounded just to kind of soften everything up. Um, the characters in it all, all the illustrations in it. Don't have black lines, they just have colored lines around them. just to make it feel kind of very friendly and vibrant and, yeah. I I, it's been an absolute buzz to work on. I'm, I'm still making them, I think we're getting up to five or six now. and it's, it's just a joy Chaffey's, a character that I've been working on for about 20 years now in various different ways. We've done, I've done a few picture search books before and we made these little toys and sent them out, and there's a whole website about looking for them and animations and things like that. So it's kind of, it's a bigger project than just making comics. It was always meant to be kind of a, an ongoing multimedia sort of project. so it's, it's really nice to actually. For all the fun stuff I did with Chaffy, I never really sat down and told stories, like personal stories about them, about characters meeting them, and then what happens. and so, so to be able to do this, to start telling all these little adventures and stories with Chaffy, is great. I I'm loving it and, and it's really nice to see that kids are responding to it as well.
Lucy SB:Yeah, I just think it's great and it's just that, that simplicity if you are sort of just beginning reading and you've already got quite a lot of kind of cognitive stuff going on just to deal with reading, just being able to just automatically know which is the next panel and you know where you are going in, it just really helps, I think.
Jamie Smart:oh, great. There are picture searches in it as well, so it's kind of interactive. The idea is you're reading along this story and you can get involved and look for certain things through the book. but they're also little sort of dotted lines kind of leading you through the adventure. And, yeah, it's, it's intended to be just a very. Kind way of telling a story. A very, a very easy, holding someone's hand and, and wandering through this sort of silly, fun story.
Lucy SB:yeah,
Jamie Smart:yeah, it's great. Yeah,
Lucy SB:Yeah, lot of people, I think people think that it's kind of an innate thing to be able to understand how comics work, but it's actually not the case. It is something that we learn through exposure. and there's a really interesting, this is a total side note where there's some really interesting research around, cultures that don't have sequential images, like who to tell stories in images, but in different ways and. So, for example, when they've shown comics to, aboriginal people in Australia whose storytelling is done through all through one picture. So like the whole, all of the story is in the one picture and that they, they interpret the, the comic in the same way as in like the, the, each picture is a completely different story and tell a story from it. it. was very interesting.
Jamie Smart:I just
Lucy SB:was an interesting side note.
Jamie Smart:No, that's amazing.
Lucy SB:I'll actually put the link to the book that has that research in, in the show notes, people they're interested. How can teachers that might be listening to this support. children, do you think, to create comics? what can teachers do to try and support that passion if they see someone in their classroom? What would, did you have any support from teachers in your school? School? Did they enjoy looking at your, your comics as a child? Um, or is that
Jamie Smart:that something that you wished you'd had? I mean, it varied like any school. Some teachers were very like, yeah, oh, this is great. Keep drawing comics. And some teachers were. Can you stop drawing comics while you're, while we're doing French? I had, I had an art teacher who. I just got like my first commission when I was 16 or something, just a, an illustrative commission. And I told him I was really excited, my art teacher, and he said, oh, comics aren't proper art. And that kind of stuck with me forever. And I was like, all right, okay. I'm gonna hate you for the rest of my life now.
Lucy SB:that's it.
Jamie Smart:Yeah. Um, so, so, but those attitudes do still pervade and I'm sure any teachers listening to this podcast don't think like that.'cause otherwise they won't be listening. but you do you still get parents taking their kids into bookshops and saying, you can pick one book and they'll pick up a comic book and they go, no, no, no. Pick up a proper book. And it's just, oh, don't say proper book. They're all proper books. so I think anything I would say, most listeners probably think anyway. but I think one of the most eyeopening things was understanding that I could draw the things that I was also reading. So to take the mystique away from it. So, Like when I was drawing my own cartoons and comics and copying other people's work, that was, that was a real eyeopener. in the back of Bunny verse Monkey books, as a lot of different comics do as well, there are how to draw guides. Um, most comics now kind of have them in their books. and it's, the point of that is to show, look, we are just using very simple shapes here. We're just using circles and squares, and then we're adding a face and a few limbs and, um. Often that can be such a breakthrough for a kid to go, oh, that's, I, the, the comic I was reading, I kind of assumed was just this thing, this magical thing in front of me. But now it turns out I can see the mechanics behind it. I can see how things work and I can do my own. and that's, that's an amazing, an amazing tool, an ama, an amazing gift when you suddenly realize that it's like seeing, it's like if you ever learn in a musical instrument and suddenly the songs you. Thought would somehow magically form you can go, oh, I get it. That's chords and that's notes and that, and that's, that really changes things. And it empowers you. It gives you a freedom to create things yourself. And so I think, I guess that's all I'd say is, is just understanding how, how easy it is to start making comics, and how valid, an art form and a form of expression comics are as well. It's just. If a child seems to be naturally veering towards comics, then just, I would encourage the heck out of that.
Lucy SB:Yeah, for sure. Sometimes I do a little bit of copying comic panels and just the, also the process of doing it. You learn loads like when yours doesn't quite look the same, like, not like, has to look exactly the same, but when it has a different effect and you're like, oh, how have I ended up with something that feels different that's just super interesting.
Jamie Smart:Well also I, I think, I try and tell kids this a lot. when I'm drawing my characters and I've drawn Bunny vs Monkey characters hundreds of thousands of times now, I still get them wrong. I still mess them up. Sometimes I have to rub them out. Some characters are easier than others. so I ask kids when they come to signings, have you tried drawing any of the characters and, and did you find it easy or did you find it hard? And I, if they say they found it hard, then I try and reassure them, look it. Sometimes it will always be hard to do even when you're really, really used to it. And that's just the nature of it. but more times than not, you will, you will come up with something you love.
Lucy SB:I've just seen the book Awards and Bunny versus Monkey's in like a million different categories, but one of the things that was in as well is in the audio book category. how did the audio book for Bunny versus Monkey come about? Were you involved in that at all?'cause people were really surprised about there being an audio version of a comic. yeah. How'd that come about?
Jamie Smart:well as to how involved I was, I replied to a few emails that that was about it. I dunno whether that takes some of the magic out of it, but No. It was this company called Belinda who, who make, audio books, um, and they, they took the reins on it and they had, this narrat Kieran who does all the voices, and they just nailed it. They absolutely nailed it. Far better than I could ever have imagined. So they've done, I think they've done the first three books now. and I think they're, they're working on the next ones. I agree that I didn't understand how you would make a comic into an audio, but there have been comic audio books before there. I think there was an investigators one and I think, I think they've done a few here and there. but it's, it's far more than a, a normal audiobook.'cause a normal audiobook. You are. Reading out what's in front of you. But when you are reading out a comic, you need to insert other things. You need little narration, you need sound effects. The bunny verse monkey audio books have a lot of sound effects going on.'cause the sound effects tell parts of the story if, if you can't see anything, if there's nothing visual to work from. so for me it was an amazing achievement to, To see what they've done with it and, and to see what they come up with. I, I just, it blows my mind and it's a joy for me also to listen to them because I'm listening to them when they're released at the same time that everyone else is. And, and so I get to, I get to hear all the jokes told in ways that I couldn't even imagine. It's,
Lucy SB:Because there's a lot of sound effects in the comic strips and there's quite, you know, like bombastic things happening. I feel like Bunny vs Monkey lends itself well to audio because you can kind of, because the things that people are doing are very noisy.
Jamie Smart:Yeah. Yeah. It must have cost them a lot of money on sound effects. I dunno how these things work, but it's, uh, yeah. There's a lot of farting and explosions and, and screeching and Yeah,
Lucy SB:Exactly.
Jamie Smart:amazing.
Lucy SB:I have to say, I think, oh, is monkey Scottish someone Scottish and No, that was controversial in my house.
Jamie Smart:Yeah, it takes some get used to Monkey has in the audiobooks monkey has this kind of Rick Mayish kind of spitting
Lucy SB:maybe it was that, yeah, there was, there was one voice that was very controversial to
Jamie Smart:to,
Lucy SB:children.
Jamie Smart:but, but the thing is what every I, and I agree, there were a couple that I had to get a little used to, but when I got used to them, they worked, but. used to hearing it in your own head aren't Yeah. What, whatever voice they put to them, some of them won't be like you imagined they were.
Lucy SB:exactly. Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. the laSt thing that I really wanted to talk to you about it's just how your kind of role has changed because over, it seems like there's been, obviously bunny versus monkey's been around for quite a long time, but then also there's been an incredible sort of surge in popularity over the last few years. How has that been as an experience for you, first of all? And then have you found that your role has changed? Being a bit more of a spokesperson for comics more generally, with that popularity,
Jamie Smart:Yeah, it's been, it's been an absolute joy to see this resurgence. I, I think over the last three or four years, it's really kind of taken off and publishers are now putting out a lot of comic books. Um, and it's something that I. Those of us in comics, whether comic artists or, or the few publishers who, who've really stuck with comics. We've always known and we've believed that, children love comics. They just, they have to see them. And, and from the, I bang on about this a lot, but through the nineties and the early two thousands kind of, publishers just forgot about comics. They this amazing heritage we had in this country of, Weekly comics and comic books. they abandoned'cause it was just getting too expensive, I guess, to commission new material. so comics turned into sort of magazines instead where they were just using assets and photos and, and stuff. so original comic content wasn't really being commissioned, um, apart from the Beano and the Dandy, um, and then when the Phoenix came through as well, and then one or two other titles. But it's been, it's been such a, a slow climb through those decades. And it's, it's required the absolute dedication of those publishers to stick with it and to know that comics are a really vital, way of telling stories. so to see that now. Suddenly exploding and, and all publishers going, Hey, we, we need to be putting comics out too. it is amazing and, and part of the reason it's amazing is because all these comic artists are now getting chances to tell their stories, and these comic artists, most of'em have been around for the last few decades in, you know, the wilderness years where there haven't been many outlets to, to be telling stories. Now suddenly publishers want to hear them and they want to commission them. and so just on a personal note, you know, a lot of them are friends, so it's, it's really nice to see that they're finally getting to, to, to tell their stories and, and they're. Great. They're amazing artists and they, they draw amazing comics and, and they deserve, you know, all the royalties in the world. So yeah, the, the, the whole wave that's going on at the moment is, is wonderful. I think it should only be the start. I think it could get far bigger than this. I think comics should really be, be respected again in British culture a lot more than they have been recently.
Lucy SB:yeah. Part of the mission of this podcast is to
Jamie Smart:well, yeah,
Lucy SB:that, promote that.
Jamie Smart:and the more, the more kids we can reach with them and the more kids we can say, Hey, this is, you know, this is a way to express yourself as well. This is, this is a, a home for you if you want it in, in comics. yeah, I, I, it's just, it's wonderful and this is, this is how it should all always have been going. Uh, as for my. Role? Yes. I don't, it doesn't sit easy with me, if I'm honest. I don't feel like a spokesman for comics at all. I, I don't know enough about anything to talk about. Anything I can, I can tell you what I feel passionate about, but, um, like I couldn't, I couldn't give you facts and figures about comic industry or anything like that. I can just. Tell you what matters to me, and it matters to me that comics get recognized and that, and that kids enjoy reading. so when people ask me for, you know, quotes about. What do you think of the state of the comic industry? I think like, there was a piece in the Observer yesterday where they asked me for a few quotes and I, I said, you know, this and this and this, but I, I feel like there are probably people better than me who can, who can whack wax more lyrical than I can, or, or can, you know, say, well, reading is up 40% of comics or, but I can't even remember the stats. yeah, there are. You know, people like the comics, Lauret and, and Hannah Berry and, you know, all these people who, who know the intrinsic value of comics a lot more than I do. essentially I just want to sit at home and draw silly animals and and that's, for the most part, that's what I get to do. But, sometimes other stuff comes into it and I, and I need to put my grownup pants on.
Lucy SB:It must be, yeah, a strange kind of fish and pull between, between those things all the time. And what's next? Have you, you've already said that there's like. Three more bunny versus monkey books already done. mind blown. I got the latest one, I think it was at David Fickling's anniversary. And it was a few weeks before it came out. And, My son's minds were blown. I got serious mum. Kudos for that. They were like, we've got an illegal book, parading it around the playground. but they were very excited to have an illegal
Jamie Smart:contraband.
Lucy SB:exactly. but yeah. What, what is coming up next for you?
Jamie Smart:what is coming up? Uh, at the moment I'm very knee, knee deep in my Series Flember so I did a series of illustrated called Flember, and. We, I did four books of it and the fifth and final book, I was supposed to do about a year ago. It's taken me two or three years to get it done. Just partly to find the time, but partly to do it properly and, and tell the story I was happy with. But it's, it's finally written and signed off. It's just the next couple of months I need to do all the illustrations for it. Um, so that's coming out at the end of this year. and when that's done, that'll be like 10 years of my life well, a project that's taken 10 years of my life kind of finished and, and I, I feel like I'm gonna have more time after that, hopefully, that I'm gonna have a bit more freedom. but I'm really, really proud of what it is and I, I'm really chuffed with it all. but yeah, as, as a sort of day-to-day thing, Bunny Verse Monkey, kind of, I do a strip a week still in the Phoenix. I'm doing a new comic strip in the Phoenix, which starts in a couple of months, which I don't know, I don't think I'm allowed to say the name of it yet, but, um, and then that ties into something else, which again, I'm not allowed to talk about. It's really frustrating. I have a couple of things coming up that are that really big things for me, but I'm, they haven't been properly announced yet, so I should probably keep schtum, ax and Chaffee books. I want to get back to drawing more Looshkin as well. I have a TV show finally on Nickelodeon this
Lucy SB:I was gonna ask about tv
Jamie Smart:oh. But I've been trying for like 20 years. I really, even before I was particularly known in comics, I was working in TV and I was trying to get all these different ideas off the ground. And it has been, working in TV is one of the most difficult and thankless places to come up with original ideas. It's, I, I just, I haven't enjoyed it. Well, no, no, that's not fair. Actually. I have enjoyed it, but, but I discovered that I, I belong in comics and that I should be making comics, and as soon as I did that, as soon as I realized, oh, I should be spending all my time on comics instead, then I. TV started coming to me a bit more because it would say, oh, you've made this comic and let's try and make it a TV show, rather than me going to TV with original ideas and then watching them get torn apart. so it's worked a lot better for me that way. but yeah, so I have a show called Super Duper Bunny League on Nick Collodion Jr. I think. I think it starts over here, not till the autumn. so that's, that's for me on a, on a personal note, that's very. That's a bucket list thing that's like, oh, finally, after 20 years, you know, something finally took off.
Lucy SB:I think Bunny versus monkey film would be cool.
Jamie Smart:Oh, it would be amazing. Yeah.
Lucy SB:Just start getting that sorted out.
Jamie Smart:I mean, a lot of these things are kind of rumbling on in, along through option and developments of in the background, but, but there's never enough to really talk about. but yeah, bunny Vest Monkey to me seems like a, a no brainer that it, that it would
Lucy SB:Yeah.
Jamie Smart:well as an
Lucy SB:Well, dog Man's got a film now. I actually saw on the front cut front of the, the bunny burst of Monkey where it says like, perfect for fans of Dog Man. And I was, that also made me think like. and that's the first Bunny versus bunny book like that. There's, so that was all, there was a point where, you know, not all there was, but that was like the predominant title Dog Man for Children who wanted to like, have a book that was, that had comics in it. and now, now there's so much variety. It's just,
Jamie Smart:no Dog man was, a real breakthrough and it showed the format you can, you could give kids comics in kind of this chunky, small book. and it, and it also showed a lot of publishers, you know, kids do love comics, uh, predominantly in America. But then as it started coming over here as well, I think everyone started noticing. So yeah, dog Man opened the doors for, for a lot of us, I think. Definitely. Yeah,
Lucy SB:And
Jamie Smart:I feel I
Lucy SB:film. I thought it was good.
Jamie Smart:I've heard it's good. I haven't seen it yet,
Lucy SB:That's good. They do some cool things where there's like, where like the words, the sound of effect words like, come on the, Screen, but then the characters kind of like interact with'em and like push them away and stuff. It's cool. I liked that. I, I enjoyed that. that part of it. It was cool. We're coming to the end of the, the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. What can teachers do to harness this buzz that there is around the form at the moment in the classroom, do you think?
Jamie Smart:lot of the. Schools I have spoken to, their libraries are weirdly short of comics. They don't have many comics in it. And I understand funding for libraries, especially school libraries, it's difficult. but yeah, comics in, in like, it's just that, it's that point of accessibility. It's, it's kids knowing that comics exist in the first place. That's always been the struggle. getting them to read comics has never been that difficult. It's just, it's just showing them to them. So anything we can do to get them in the libraries. I always think things like worksheets and even just coloring in sheets and things are amazing. But I'm as guilty as anyone of not putting many of them online. You know, I, I think. It would really help artists and publishers to have printable material that, that libraries could be, you know, showing kids, allowing them to interact with. But again, I need to do that. So that's another thing on my list. and I dunno, just, just an understanding of how valuable comics are, but, but I think we all know that now. I think, I think as a society we're starting to really pick up on that and, I would just, I would love as many kids reading comics as possible.
Lucy SB:Yeah, me too. We should continue on. You are, you're slightly more productive in the mission than I'm by actually making loads of, bestselling comics. But I'll cheer you on from the sidelines. And that was,
Jamie Smart:No, I appreciate it.
Lucy SB:so the final question is, if we were to add, now a lot of people struggle with this. If we were to add one comic or book about comics, to our to be read tomorrow, what would you recommend we read Something that you've seen that you like? That you think add that to your list.
Jamie Smart:oh, uh, Oh, I know. So, I wonder what people normally say. Do they normally say books about how to make comics? Or do they say books that are comics?
Lucy SB:Mostly comics that they've read, but some books about comics, but mostly
Jamie Smart:and Hobbs comes up quite a lot,
Lucy SB:Calvin and Hobbs doesn't, isn't often recommended at the end. A lot of people talk about Calvin Hobbs when they're talking about their kind of like early reading,
Jamie Smart:Yeah. Getting
Lucy SB:comics, but it's, I don't know if, it's, I don't think it's been one that's recommended at the end.
Jamie Smart:okay. So I'm not gonna say Karen and Hobbs, even though I adore Karen and Hobbs. I'm gonna, I'm looking at my bookshelf and I'm gonna say. The pre-history of the far side. Uh, so the far side for anyone who doesn't know was a single panel comic strip in, in newspapers. It was huge in like the eighties and nineties. Um, just a single panel, just a very basic gag. So it wasn't sequential. It wasn't one panel after the other. Um, and they were just very easy jokes and you'd, most people would probably recognize'em if they saw them. Like I say, the far side was massive and there are an awful lot of imitators of it. But this one book, the Prehistory of the Far Side is about, the artist Gary Larson talking through his process and he, he posts up, you know, for example, he will post up the finish, panel, but he'll also post up the sketch or he'll post up, How panels got their jokes mixed up when they were printed or it's just a lot of behind the scenes stuff of how it all works. And that for me as a kid, um, I. Really, really, really, really changed things. And I was talking to someone about it the other day, I can't remember who, but they weren't a comic artist, but they too said that was an amazing book.'cause you suddenly realized the workings of a, of a comic. The workings of being funny, of justification, yeah. Of drawing a cartoon to have to have a grownup sit down with you and, and say, look, this is what went wrong here. This is what I was thinking here. This, it really. Opens your eyes to, to how all this stuff works. So, yeah. Even though it's, I dunno, it's, it's single panel comics. They're comics aren't they? I never quite know. Like gag cartoons.
Lucy SB:cartoon is what I was gonna say, but yeah, I think they're part
Jamie Smart:Yeah. Part of comics, aren't they? I'm gonna, I'm gonna, um,
Lucy SB:I think we can say
Jamie Smart:of this answer. Yeah,
Lucy SB:Yeah,
Jamie Smart:the pre-history of the far side.
Lucy SB:we'll ban you from saying it on
Jamie Smart:Thank you.
Lucy SB:basis there's only one
Jamie Smart:it counts. I think if you saw it, you would go, oh no, that does fit in
Lucy SB:Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. That's really interesting. I've not heard of that one. And I love all that kind of nitty gritty behind the scenes stuff, so yeah. That sounds great. Thank you for that recommendation, and thank you for joining me today and sharing all of your knowledge. It's, yeah, it's been great to have you on.
Jamie Smart:No, thank you for inviting me. It's been a absolute honor. It's always lovely. I, like I said, the responsibility of being spokesperson for comics doesn't sit with me, but I am always very, very happy to wang on about comics for an hour.
Lucy SB:Talk about the thing that you love. Well, thank you for wanging on, on going, boom.
Jamie Smart:Thank you very me.
There you have it. A great chat with Jamie. I'm so grateful to him for giving, giving us time, and I think there was loads of really interesting insights. I think you get a real glimpse of the man behind the comic strips and he's got such a calm and genuine energy. I really loved talking to him, and a great recommendation there as well. My recommendation this week is going to be something that I've recently read, Anzu, in the realm of Darkness by Mai K. Nguyen I hope I've pronounced that right. I'm really sorry if I haven't. an absolutely stunning, beautiful book. The colors, the use of the comic form, the characters, the artwork. I also, I love, reading about Japanese mythology. And this is all set within that Japanese mythological underworld, a coming of age a reckoning with your identity. A story about a young girl who falls. Into the underworld. Also, themes of intergenerational relationships, connecting with our heritage, whilst also sort of moving forward and being ourselves. It's a really, really beautiful book. Absolutely stunning. I very much enjoyed it. So that's my recommendation for this week. Thanks to a LCS for sponsoring today's episode. As you know, we often have writers on comic boom speaking about their work, and A LCS is a not-for-profit organization supporting its 120,000 plus members to collect money for all of the secondary uses of their work. Things like photocopies. Digital reproductions and use in education as well. And they also provide some fantastic resources to support educators to explore topics like copyright and plagiarism in the classroom. I noticed on their website that they've got, a really up to date, selection of resources on AI, poetry and copyright, which is really interesting. So that was around the National Poetry Day. So they teamed up with National Poetry Day to bring you. Two videos and some accompanying resources about AI and poetry. Really starting to tackle those important conversations around the role that humans play in creating art and poetry and why that's important, in the age of ai. So really interesting stuff there. And that's for ages nine to 14 So a really good span. And different things you can dip in and out of. Check that out. The link to their website will be in the show notes. What a brilliant 50th episode. In fact, I have a bit of a confession to make because I realized after, carefully planning Jamie's episode to be the 50th episode of Comic Boom, that this is actually the 49th. But we're just gonna ignore that. We're gonna keep calm. We're gonna carry on hashtag not the 50th episode. But it's the 50th episode in spirit. And next week we also have a brilliant episode as well. So there's, there's, there's no concerns there. but thank you so much for tuning in and listening you. As always, please share, share, share with your networks. We are now set up on Blue Sky, so you can find the podcast on Instagram, on Blue Sky and on x, and on LinkedIn if you wanna find me. I also share the episode. So on LinkedIn there as well. So have a lookout for those. You can share them to your networks easily. Get that link going. and we'll spread the word about the importance of comics and its uses in education between us. love being part of this community of educators, librarians, academics, creators, all passionate about the same thing, which is the power of the form. So thank you. It is been great. I've loved making these last 50 episodes at 49. and, very much looking forward to bringing you next week's episode two. You've been listening to Comic Boom, which is produced and hosted by me, Lucy Starbuck Braidley. Thanks for listening.
