Comic Boom - Comics in Education

Comic Boom - Comics in Education with Yiting Lee and Swapna Haddow

• Lucy Starbuck Braidley/Swapna Haddow/Yiting Lee • Season 6 • Episode 2

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In this episode Lucy chats to illustrator Yiting Lee and writer  Swapna Haddow about their latest titles with publishers Magic Cat, Little Dinosaurs, Big Questions. 

Little Dinosaurs, Big Questions, features ten fictional comic strip stories with supportive tools to help understand the difficult things about life. Designed for grown-ups to read with children.

 Yiting is a children’s book author and illustrator from Taiwan, based in England. Yiting graduated from MA Children's Book Illustration at Cambridge School of Art in 2012. She focuses on picture books, and whimsical and unpredictable stories are something she always loves to deliver. She likes to keep the story simple and the illustration full, because she knows children love looking into those details like she did. In her illustration, she mainly uses watercolour, gouache, ink, colour pencils and whatever she newly discovered. 

Swapna Haddow is the multi award-winning children’s author of the Dave Pigeon series, published by Faber & Faber. The Dave Pigeon series has received rave reviews since first publishing in 2016 and went on to win three regional awards in the UK and was shortlisted for the prestigious Sainsbury’s Children’s Book Award. Swapna loves to write about boisterous animals that cause mayhem and is working with Faber & Faber, Magic Cat, Scholastic, Oxford University Press and Macmillan to make sure mean cats, grizzly bears and big-hearted little rabbits find their place on the bookshelves. Friendship and humour are always at the heart of what she loves to write.

This episode of Comic Boom is sponsored by ALCS, The Authors Licensing and Collecting Society.

Yiting’s Recommendation:

Spike and Suzy by Willy Wandersteen

Swapna’s Recommendation:

This Land by Mark Abnet

Lucy’s Recommendation:

Ditching Saskia by John Moore and Neetols


Follow the podcast:

Insta: @comic_boom_podcast

Twitter/X: @Lucy_Braidley

Bluesky: @comicboom.bsky.social

Contact: comicboompodcast@gmail.com


Music by John_Sib from Pixabay



Hello, and welcome to Comic Boom, the Comics and Education podcast. If you are interested in hearing more about the crossover between comics and education, then this is the podcast for you. My name is Lucy Starbuck Braidley and each week I'll be joined by a fellow educator, an academic, a librarian, or a creator of comics to discuss their journey into comics and provide some inspiration to influence your practice. And hopefully shine some light on titles you can bring into your libraries, classrooms, and onto your bookshelves at home too. This episode of Comic Boom is sponsored by A LCS, the author's licensing and collecting society. And today I'm joined by Yiting Lee and Swapna Haddow to talk about their book, little Dinosaurs Big Questions, which is the second in the little dinosaur series published by Magic Cat. In the book, we meet Diplo, the Jurassic Kingdom's best Love therapist on his second adventure. the verse book you may be familiar with. It talked about feelings and emotions, and this one is all about those big questions like. Does it hurt grass? When I chomp it? Is it ever good to lie? And why do bad things happen? I think it's a really great book for exploring difficult questions. It's got simple exercises and activities and the interaction between the dinosaurs in the book are all told in comic form Yiting is a children's book. Illustrator from Taiwan, now based in England. She graduated from the MA in children's book illustration at In Cambridge School of Art in 2012, she focuses on picture books and whimsical and often unpredictable stories are something that she loves to deliver. It's a really delicate, beautiful style of illustration, So that's something that I talked to her about today and we've had Swapna her on the, on the podcast before. Swapna is a multi award-winning children's author of the Dave Pigeon series, which you may be familiar with, but also done a lot of comics writing when she was on before she was talking about Reggie Rabbit, a book that she's done with Oxford University Press and now back here to talk about the little dinosaur series. I absolutely love talking to this. Creative duo. Great to hear a little bit more about Yiting's background and how she approached her work on this topic. And I just think it's so interesting to be able to use comics in this way to stimulate discussion and conversation to navigate those difficult questions. We talk a lot about that in our conversation. Here's what they had to say.

Yiting:

Hina. Nice to be here. Thank me.

Swapna:

Hi. Nice to be here

Lucy:

Oh yeah, you're returning guest.

Swapna:

I brought a p.

Lucy:

It's so nice to have you both. It's great to have a returning guest. You're actually. Apart. Oh no, I was gonna say you're the first one. There is, um, Paul, who runs the Excelsior Awards comes every year to talk about the nominees for the Excelsior Awards. But apart from that, well, no. You are the first returning guest, which is very

Swapna:

wow. Excellent. I'm gonna add that to my cv.

Lucy:

please do. I'm sure we can get you some kind of icon for your website, I'm sure.

Swapna:

Yeah. Brilliant.

Lucy:

Now, as we've heard from Swapna and heard a little bit on her episode about her history as a comics reader and, her background, if you're interested in that, uh, listeners can go and check that out On Swapna's. There's, original episode. I'll put the link to that in the show notes as well. so we'll talk to Yiting first. So as we heard, we've heard in the intro you are a, you are an illustrator and you work on picture books and comics, but I'm interested, if you are a comics reader yourself, is that something that's been in your, either as a child or now? Is that something that's been in your reading diet, reading comics?

Yiting:

yes, I'm definitely a comic reader. As long as I can remember. So, as a kid I start, reading picture books. My mom, I remember my mom bought like tons of picture books and I think I was really lucky that I'm the only one in the neighborhood have so many picture books to read.

Lucy:

Wow.

Yiting:

yeah, and as I grow older, my interest, uh, expand to comics. So I think comic is a. great way to learn more knowledge'cause it can elaborate more ideas in, in the books. So, I start to read comics and while, many of my friends in college, they, they read more like, romance fictions and I still love my comics, so

Lucy:

love it. So you kept with it as you grew older, you're still, you still stayed strong to the comic love.

Yiting:

Yeah.

Lucy:

Is there a, a standalone Taiwanese comic? scene, or is it a lot of imported comics? what kind of things were you reading?

Yiting:

when I grew up, we have more, Japanese manga, so it's imported. So Japanese mangas was quite a big things back in that time. I mean, they are still big now for sure, but as I know, Taiwanese manga, uh, kind of growing right now, I haven't read as much as I should. But I mean, my love to Japanese manga is just, is just there.

Lucy:

And I know that in terms of the Japanese manga titles that get translated into English, it's quite limited. Are there any titles that you were reading as you're growing up that we might know from, from the English translated manga? What kind of titles were you reading?

Yiting:

I think, there's one, called one piece. I think it's quite big. Yeah. So.

Lucy:

Yeah.'cause it's on, there's a TV series as well,

Yiting:

Yeah. Yeah. They have anime as well, I think. Yeah.

Lucy:

And you're a fan of that?

Yiting:

Yeah. I just still remember the first, uh, time I read the, their first volume. I mean, it's long, long time ago, but I just been so intrigued by the story straight, straight away, and I just. It's kind of amazing to think about like the adventure of the little boy is continuing and now I'm an adult. Now I, they are the story still continuing, so yeah, it's quite amazing to think about that. Yeah.

Lucy:

Yeah, it is actually, isn't it? and sort of going back to what kind of pulled you into. Comics. You spoke actually when you, when you were talking about your love of comics, that your first thing that you went to was about the story and the kinds of stories that, that are able to be told in comic form. So was your interest mainly led by those kind of narratives or as an illustrator, even from that early age an illustrator of the future, was it the images that were pulling you in as well in terms of the artistic inspiration?

Yiting:

I think the first impression, definitely the artwork. So I do remember I pick up quite many, comics by, I love the artwork and I start reading it, but I, I have to admit, I. The story still is the essential base to keep the reader keep going. I mean, I gave up many, comics just because the story wasn't really intriguing enough or too complicated.

Lucy:

Yeah, that's so true. If you pick something up, you might pick something up because the artwork draws you in. But then if it's not got a good enough story, you're not gonna stick with it. IE that's, that's, that rings really true to, for me, from my perspective as well.

Yiting:

Yeah, and it can be the opposite as well. Sometimes the, the artwork wasn't appealing to start with, but then the story just, just amazing. And then for. For comics. I think old manga, I dunno. It's quite interesting to see like the artist start from something. Maybe their artwork wasn't that great, but then because they keep going and going, then you can see the artwork like just transform into something even better. So yeah, it's something great about comics as well.

Lucy:

Yeah, that's right. Those really long running series. Yeah. That's, that's really interesting. I'm interested in you as, as an illustrator, how did you, how did that happen? Your journey into illustration? yeah. What can you tell us about your kind of career path?

Yiting:

okay, let me think.

Lucy:

Is it a long story?

Yiting:

I think I, yeah, I start my career from when I start, I went to study at Cambridge School of Art where I complete my MA in children's book illustration. So that's

Lucy:

course, that course,

Yiting:

Yeah, it is.

Lucy:

Very illustrious course to be on.

Yiting:

So I would say that's where I started. So, uh, after that I just start to, um, create illustration and picture books.

Lucy:

And to get to that point, were you a child that was always drawing, always, into art. how did that, how did that passion, because sometimes I think, a love of drawing can be something that we have in childhood, but people kind of lose it or drop it as they grow older. And what was it that you think sort of sustained your love of illustration?

Yiting:

Yeah. I think I just had the habit to, to draw since I was a kid and my mom always. She always bought the tons of papers there and I just remember I was, sat down and then draw, and I think I always start with characters and I draw a character and I always put a name there. I just need to give them a name and then start to make a story about what they are doing. Maybe talking to myself and then just draw something else. If I draw with my sister, I will. Probably like get her involved and then like ask her like, what is my character doing? Or something. Just the story just happened there, I think. Yeah.

Lucy:

That's great. And in terms of schools, what's, what was, what's the situation in Taiwan? As you were growing up, did you have access to comics? You spoke about having them at home, but, but were they part of school life as well?

Yiting:

Yeah, it's definitely, there are tons of, comics in the library. I still remember I went to the library every, every day and then pick up different comics. They have some comics about, history. I mean, it's much easier to, to learn history through comics, in my opinion. And even some comics were about mathematics. I think I wasn't good at mathematics. But then that book kind of. Let me to understand it a bit better in a different way. Yeah. Yeah. And also some fictions. Yeah, for sure.

Lucy:

So we are here to discuss little dinosaur's, big questions, a project you've both worked on for Magic Cat. So I'm gonna bring Swapna in a little bit now. Can you just introduce the book to listeners, what's it about and who it's for really what the intended audience is.

Swapna:

Yeah, so Little Dinosaurs Big Questions is the second book in the Little dinosaurs series. Um, last year, little Dinosaurs, big Feelings came out, again, written by me with the help of a clinical psychologist called Amber Owen. And, beautifully illustrated by Yiting. Now that book was kind of like an anthology of 10 graphic novel stories, which followed different feelings, different themes of feelings, including things like anger, sadness, but also feelings like happiness and contentedness and over excitedness kind of things that aren't so commonly covered in the feelings

Lucy:

quite. It, uh, it's one of those things when you're working with children, and the default is happy or sad, isn't it? Um, it is. Even, even with your own children, it is trying to build that emotional vocabulary, and you are like, actually, there's a whole lot of other feelings

Swapna:

Yeah, exactly.

Lucy:

happy or sad. Yeah.

Swapna:

Yeah, absolutely. And so the f the idea of the book was we would have these graphic novel stories, and at the end of each story there was a kind of recap of where you would feel that feeling in your body and, and then a mindful exercise to go along with that feeling. and like you said, exactly that it's. To try and give children the vocabulary, uh, for how they might be feeling. Because we can all identify, oh, our tummies feel a bit wobbly, but we are not entirely sure why. So that was kind of the. The concept behind, little dinosaur's, big feelings, and so little dinosaur's, big questions, follows the same format. And instead is, questions, believe it or not. and then we cover a whole bunch of questions like, what does it mean to be fair? is it ever okay to lie? Does the grass hurt if we stomp on it? You know, all sorts of things like that. So there's 10 more stories. again, in that kind of graphic novel story followed by a kind of recap of themes in the story and then a mindful activity to go along with what you might have kind of read about in the story. It's for young children. You know, kind of primary school age, those early ages. I just don't think it you can ever. Start too early talking about, these kind of ideas and getting children to think about what they value. but of course it is to be read with a grownup, so maybe in the classroom or with a parent, because I'm really hoping it's a springboard for adults to have those conversations with children. You know, we want them to grow up to be. Critical thinkers and this a generation of kids who are independent and have the vocabulary to understand what's going on in the world. And I just think, you know, these these issues feel big, these questions feel big and sometimes you feel like you don't have the answer, but that's not what this is about. It's about having conversations. so yeah, that's kind of what I'm hoping. I'm hoping it's a shared book between adults and children.

Lucy:

Yeah, I think it's a really great resource. I, I, I love it. I think it's a really interesting kind of mix of fiction and NonFiction's got kind of fictional scenarios, but really it's about sharing information as well. So it's kind of that, and sits in that kind of crossover space. How was that you as a writer kind of approaching the writing and getting that blend

Swapna:

Yeah. Um, well, obviously the themes are nonfiction, but it's so much easier to relate those kind of big themes to children with a fiction story. Um, so most of the stories. Yeah, they are dinosaurs, but they are relatable stories. So you know, there's a story about someone being mean and whether we should be nice to people who are mean to us. And you know, one of the dinosaurs pushes over the paint pots of another dinosaur and you know, kind of relatable stuff that, you know, every child will understand in the classroom. Someone being a bit mean or a bit clumsy with stuff. And should you be nice in that situation and help tidy up and, I'm hoping the answers aren't kind of like my worldview really kind of like actual answers. I'm hoping it opens up an idea of, oh, well if I do this, what does that mean and what does that say? And if I, if I chose this other path, what does that mean and what does that say? So I think because

Lucy:

because then they're not all you. I mean the, they're all questions where there isn't really a clear cut

Swapna:

yeah, yeah, exactly.

Lucy:

discussion stimulus.

Swapna:

Yeah, exactly. So I think having the fiction story helps narrate that theme a lot easier rather than kind of just saying, this is what fairness is, this is how we can look at fairness. This is what it means if we. Don't all start on an equal playing field. You know, rather than just being very dictatorial about what a, philosophical theme is, it's much more like, you know, subtly woven into the story in a more easy to understand way. And honestly, I've had adults come up to me and say, actually this was a really good way for me to understand. The theme behind this rather than reading like a big textbook. so yeah, I think it's, yeah, the fiction stories have demonstrate that value or that thought process. I.

Lucy:

And you've worked with, I know you've already mentioned Amber and the, the clinical psychologist that was on the team too. I'm really interested in how that worked. Did you write the stories and then were they checked or was it a sort of an informative thing beforehand or all of the above?

Swapna:

Yeah. Yeah. It kind of was all the. All of them you are above. I think. I'm trying to think how this, you write these books like a year ago and you can't remember what you've done. Okay, so I think I base, Rachel had come to me, she's my editor, and said, you know, big feelings has done brilliantly. I was wondering if we had some other ideas. For what we can do with another book. And so we spoke about it being big questions and that idea came from the two of us talking together about it. And so then I sat down and I you know, as a parent myself Thought about the questions that I would have liked my child to ask me, or questions that he actually did ask me, or things that we did discuss. And so I wrote those all down, turned them into story forms and finished them off with activities that we would've. Done together, we spoke about, and then I sent it off to Amber and was like completely panicked and said this, I feel really, really scared that I would be putting out a book that's just entirely my worldview. I'm not sure that's a great, I don't think that's a great idea. Could you help me out? And she was brilliant. She helped tweak the stories. She had really great ideas for activities, that really solidify things that. We talked about in the stories. and yeah, it kind of worked like that and then we to and fro for a little bit and yeah, that was it. And then it went, went off to be incredibly illustrated.

Lucy:

Yeah. So Yiting, did you, have advice from Amber too, or was that all worked out by the time you started working on the illustrations?

Yiting:

actually no, I didn't work with Amber directly at all. So what I got is like the, the, the great result, from Swapna and Amber, so I just start from there. So all the conversation, went through, uh, editor. I only work with the editor

Lucy:

Okay. And I'm just, I just had a question that just popped into my mind. Um, as Swapna was talking, which is when she pointed out that they're dinosaurs, it was like, oh yeah, they're all dinosaurs. Um, was that, I was just accepting them in my life that they, they're

Swapna:

Yeah.

Lucy:

everything. Um, but where did that concept of it being, I know that would go back to the first book rather than the sequel, but that concept of them being dinosaurs come from.

Swapna:

I think Rachel came with that. I think Rachel said I had this idea for kind of little dinosaurs, big feelings. and then we'd have these, you know, stories that go around these feelings. Would you like to write it? And then I obviously, I was like, yeah, yes, please. so I think, I can't remember, but I'm pretty sure Rachel came already with dinosaurs. Yeah, she, she was already, she was

Lucy:

dinosaurs,

Swapna:

yeah. Well, I think it was this kind of idea of like, you know, talking about feelings has been around for the whole, for, since the beginning of time that kind of. Thing and you know, that whole thing. I think it was getting back to basics and learning the vocab and understanding where we feel feelings in ourselves

Lucy:

And Yiting had you already got a strong dinosaur repertoire in your illustration,

Yiting:

No,

Lucy:

this like, all right, now I need to learn how to draw dinosaurs.

Yiting:

exactly. That's my reaction. To be fair, when Rachel, yeah, when Rachel reached out, I was thinking, really, me, dinosaur. I drew all the animals, but never draw dinosaur. But yeah, I really enjoy it. Really? Yeah.

Lucy:

I think you've done a, a great job there of making them, you know, full of character and,

Yiting:

well

Lucy:

and very approachable and like Yeah, they're, they're gorgeous. How did you two work together then? I know when, when I've spoken to you before Swapna you were receiving the, the finished product as it were from, from the illustrator was it like that? Did you have an idea of what the visuals were going to look? I think they're really distinctive.

Swapna:

Yeah.

Lucy:

Did you, have a kind of idea of how the book was gonna look as a finished piece once you'd finished your writing

Swapna:

Yeah, I think so. I think also when you are working on comic strips and things like that, When you write the text, it's almost like a play, so it sort of. It plays out quite visually before you even have the illustrations. I basically sent the text to Rachel and then, unless there was a real moments where I was like, this should be illustrated like this, or, you know, just because it kind of enhanced what was being said in the text. I didn't really say anything else. and then I imagine that Rachel gave a brief of what she was looking for in each, panel and then it, it went off and it came back as this stunning artwork. And I was like, wow, that was easy.

Lucy:

Yeah. And so you think from your side, you, you get the script. What, what do you do then? In terms of your process of starting to work on the illustrations, you've, you've received this script, what happens next?

Yiting:

normally I got the brief from Magic Cat, so they will give me the conversation and they will, I could tell me this is the panel here and, so I will start to imagine what happened and what kind of facial expression they will have. And what kind of thing? Sometimes I like to put things at the background, things happening, like some funny things. But then, I don't know it, this is actually something different from picture books, I think compared to comics that, In the first particular book, I think I make the mistake to make the background too busy, so there's too many things happen at the background, but in comic form it doesn't work that well, that it kind of distract the reader to, to be engaged in the conversation. So then I, yeah, I just changed a bit and then it works better. So I think that's how, gradually I pick up what's the comic way of illustrating this? Then just, it just get better and better and we did it quicker and quicker I think. So that's why we can have the second book come out just within an year, I think. Right

Swapna:

Yeah, it was very quick. Yeah.

Yiting:

Yeah.

Lucy:

brilliant. And I love the kind of, the style of your illustrations. I think a lot of particularly in graphic novels, a lot of the illustrations we see in graphic novels, children are quite digital style. It tends to be the most kind of common style, but, your illustrations feel very different. how do you actually go about making images? Are you working on computer at all? Are you working very much in sort of physical media? How do you make these beautiful pictures?

Yiting:

Yeah, you are right. The, the style isn't really typical in comics, I think, because I think it's because my background is, doing. Picture books, illustration. So I naturally gravitate toward to traditional media using watercolor and color pencils which has, uh, more rich texture and warmth. To the artwork. And so when I start, working this book with Magic Cat, I didn't really question my approach. I just go with it and, and then the style kind of, yeah, I think it, it's quite works well with the story, I think.

Lucy:

Yeah, it is beautiful. and I think it's a really nice, As well, because I think like if children wanting to recreate those images, it's quite hard for them to, to get something similar to what they're seeing in the book if it's a very digital image. Whereas they can create some of those text, same textures, that they're seeing on the page. you know, they have access to things like watercolors and coloring pencils and, um. They can, have a go. I think it, it feels really like something that you could use also as well as something that would inspire conversation with the content. It's also something I think that, that, that could inspire children to do a bit of creating of their own as well.

Yiting:

Yeah, exactly.

Lucy:

one of the things I wanted to ask you was around your approach to some of the concepts in the book. because it's philosophical questions, they're quite abstract things that we're talking about. It's quite hard. Like fairness, draw a picture of fairness is quite hard, quite a dual challenge. And I know it was a, it was a story to go along with that. Um, but how did you, was that difficult at times for you to get that, visual side to go along?

Yiting:

Oh, I would say it's definitely a challenge to illustrate that bit sometimes. especially the recap page and the activity sometimes because, um, to. To use, uh, just a icon to, to describe what's happening there and then lead children to do the activity. I found sometimes it's, it is hard, most of the time I can naturally visualize how to illustrate a concept, uh, to help children to understand. But some ideas are more difficult and that's when I ask myself if the content is abstract, does it need to be illustrated in a literal way? So, Yeah. so maybe the artwork can be abstract as well. And children, they will just figured it out. And so allowing children to feel what it means rather than just process. Like tell them what is the logical way to think, I guess.

Swapna:

I think you were so clever because. There were, there were definitely things. I remember there was the recap page about, when someone's mean to us and whether we should forgive them or not. and there was this image of a volcano exploding. Like things like that was so clever, you know,

Yiting:

yeah, that one. Yeah.

Swapna:

letting something go or feeling angry without. Drawing just like another angry dinosaur. I thought that was so clever. I really loved that kind of stuff because children are very visual learners. They can pick up on things like that without needing to necessarily read the words.

Lucy:

Yeah. And that's the beauty of having images is that it doesn't need to be literal, isn't it? You know, it can go so much further beyond. Really lovely. And I, and I think you're completely right we don't have to oversimplify things for children. They're

Swapna:

Yeah. Yeah.

Lucy:

Yeah.

Yiting:

Yeah, we definitely should trust them. They are clever.

Lucy:

Yeah, I completely agree. so the whole book itself, I mean. I struggled to put this down into words, but it's just so nice to have in your hands. Like it's, it's a, it's just a lovely object as well. Like, it, it's a nice size. There's got a, like a textured cover that just feels really lovely in your hand and that all seems to compliment as well, Yiting your, your sort of style of illustration that, that texture and then it comes through on the cover and it's all just gorgeous. I've got a thing for books that are particular dimensions. I just love it when they're not the normal dimensions. I love like a

Swapna:

I have a I have a thing for hardbacks, so if it comes in a hardback, I'm like, oh, this is very nice. This is so luxurious.

Lucy:

Um, yeah, it is gorgeous. Does that then go into the hands of the publisher, the team there in terms of making those decisions on the cover and, and the rest of it that, that makes the kind of the product, I guess.

Swapna:

Yeah, I mean I definitely can take zero credit for the production of these books. They are stunning. if, you know Magic Cat's list, you know, they put out stunner after stunner. So it is very much in their wheelhouse to have these gorgeous books. So, yeah, sadly I can't take any credit. It just was absolutely beautiful. More beautiful than I could have ever imagined. They are probably one, some of my favorite books on my shelf.

Lucy:

So when you receive them in the post is, was it, is it almost a surprise what? How the finished product comes

Swapna:

Yeah, it is. It sort of is and it isn't because I've seen the kind of mockups of the book and I've seen the cover as well. they've sent through the artwork for that, so kind of have an idea. But just like you said, it's the feel of it, the size of it. Everything is just so wonderful it feels like a classic book almost, you know? Um, and so yeah, it, it is an absolute delight to open up a magic cat box when it comes.

Lucy:

You must have a lot of books in your house. You shelf off the shelf, um,

Swapna:

books. Yeah, I'm a bit of a hoarder when it comes to books.

Lucy:

Yiting from your perspective, do you have any input into those design decisions, around the sort of texture of the cover, the dimensions.

Yiting:

I don't get involved with the decision of how this book can be made so beautifully. But, uh, I do remember, at the very beginning of the first, little inner so big feelings, the dimension. At the beginning was bigger and uh, yeah. and I think maybe I actually start to illustrate the first chapter and then they kind of have a, meeting and then decide to trim the dimension into a smaller size, which is right now and. I actually think it works very well in this dimension. Yeah,

Swapna:

Yeah, I can't even imagine it. Like maybe picture book size, maybe that was the original, but I just can't imagine it bigger. It's so, it feels like it has to be this size.

Yiting:

Yeah, so I, I'm quite glad they make the decision to change it to what it is now. Yeah,

Lucy:

Yeah, it kind of sets it apart from picture book as well, doesn't it? It kind of feels like it's its own thing. It's got the kind of

Swapna:

Yes.

Lucy:

to it. I'm really interested in the, the potential of comics in the ways that they're different from picture books, and the stories that they can tell because of those difference that you can tell in comics because of those differences. And I know Yiting, you've mentioned a little bit earlier on about the difference as a reader of, of exploring comics, in what ways do they lend themselves to exploring kind of quite tricky concepts like these philosophical concepts? I mean, you think, if you start us off,

Yiting:

Hmm.

Lucy:

how do you think the comic form can deal with these concepts differently than maybe if it had been a picture book or if it had just been a prose book?

Yiting:

I mean, before you ask me, ask this question, I actually never think about it. But now you ask. I think it's so, so much potential of it. I mean, even just like, um, Snoopy, Snoopy dog, they ask a lots of like a philosophical,

Lucy:

Yeah, I'm, I'm, thinking of Calvin and Hobbes as well, which

Yiting:

Yes, that one, that was the one I was, I'm really bad. I remember the title, so sometimes I just commend it. But yeah, that one. So I think comics is actually a very good way to, to approach this concept since I also remember I read some comics when I was little in Taiwan. There is one is the. they drew a character of a Chinese philosopher called Zu, and he just, the artist just gave the, gave the character a really interesting personality, like a carefree, wise man, and then doing funny things and, but then people around him will have like a. Like give him a weird look. But then at the end of the story, childrens will learn why he did that. It's because something he think differently from other people. So I do remember the experience of reading it. Like, help me to understand that. So, so I think comic definitely can have the potential of it.

Lucy:

Mm. Swapna what, what are your thoughts on this?

Swapna:

I love the idea of options for children, so there'll be some who lean better towards picture books and some to comics and all sorts of things, and so having options is brilliant for me. So having. Both available to children. I think also with these kind of quite big themes and you know, big concepts, it does help for young children to see it play out in comic form because there's something in picture books, which is that you have the words, you have the illustrations, and there's a slight gap between where. Children and adults, whoever's reading them, have that kind of interpretation space. So they add a level to the story as well. Whereas with these kind of quite big concepts, you want to be a bit more, you wanna tighten that kind of gap a little bit so that you know, you just kind of don't have a child going off and completely miss. The point entirely. So I think this plays out almost like watching a movie when you read a comic, because every panel just kind of matches onto the last one and pushes the story on without leaving a, a big void, which you have to fill in with your own imagination. And I think that helps portray difficult subjects and difficult stories. So. Yeah, I think that's what's helped a lot with this, especially because these books are aimed at quite young children. so though the words will be said to them, and though they might be hearing the words, they're gonna interpret a lot from the pictures and the progression of those panels and watching the story unfold. and I'm hoping that when they come to the end of the story, they've taken what the story should have been rather than a kind of completely different interpretation on that.

Lucy:

that's really interesting. It's sort of more of a guiding through a ability to guide through a

Swapna:

That's the words I was looking for. You'd think I'd be good at words. I'm not. I am good at words. If I have three to eight weeks editor.

Lucy:

Three to eight week's lead

Swapna:

Yeah.

Lucy:

this has been a great partnership. We've got two amazing books. Is there gonna be another in the dinosaur series?

Swapna:

I don't know what we can say this is. Yeah, I mean, I would definitely love to work with eating again. I've just loved these

Yiting:

Yeah, me

Swapna:

um, but I definitely don't think we can actually say anything. Um, there, there's thing things are being talked about, but it's very, very early stages, so it's not,

Lucy:

little. Dinosaurs, big secrets. Is it? That seems what?

Yiting:

That sounds like a nice title.

Swapna:

yeah.

Lucy:

Brilliant. Uh, wow. We'll have to keep our eyes peeled, for any future announcements about that. But I certainly really loved exploring it. I think it's a, a brilliant but great resource to have in school as well as at home. It's been brilliant to have you both on, I'd like to kind of pick out a, something, educators to think about, as we finish the episode.

Swapna:

Well, I would say. Don't be afraid, like these can feel like huge questions. And sometimes I think especially as grownups, we feel like we need to have answers to questions. we really don't, children don't even expect answers. They're much more open to having conversations. But I think we terrify ourselves into, we need to know everything that they have asked the question to. And so it can feel really daunting to have these kind of. Big philosophical. Well, I've said it wrong, haven't I? Philosophical, there we go. Philosophical conversations. But, so I would say don't be afraid. That's the whole point of the book that you, the conversation is started for you. I think the main thing is to not feel afraid. If you don't have the answer, you can absolutely say, you know what? I'm not sure, but let's talk through it.

Lucy:

Sometimes it's really hard to have a conversation of fairness when you are embroiled in a situation in which someone thinks something's unfair has happened. So it's quite like, so it is actually quite hard to have those conversations outside of the child feeling something around that. So it's really nice to have, have a tool to actually maybe, you know, a few days time, just come back to it. And

Swapna:

Yeah, absolutely.

Lucy:

but it's, let's have a conversation just about the concept.

Swapna:

Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, these are conversations you can have anytime, but particularly in the moment it's kind of hard to find the words and you're just trying to, diffuse a situation. But the hope is that you kind of. Have this new springboard for the conversation later when everything's calmed down. I think the most important thing is we are trying to build children who learn how to communicate well, who are able to listen, who are able to understand, and so. I can't stress enough that I think these conversations need to be had earlier rather than later. And so I'm hoping anyone who's feeling a little bit intimidated about having a conversation about lying, feels less intimidated now because they have this kind of like resource to start the conversation.

Lucy:

Yiting what? What are your thoughts?

Yiting:

yeah, I totally agree with Swapna about the having the conversation and I would even imagine the teachers or educators probably can put the class into two group, let them debate each questions. I

Swapna:

would be so good.

Lucy:

That would

Yiting:

Yeah. cause you wouldn't know. They might have like a crazy kind of, thought about, or they make, I mean, they will learn to make a point about why. People should agree with them and which is a great way to try to communicate. So yeah, I think that would be fun.

Swapna:

that is such a good way to like also teach empathy with kids because they'll have to listen to each other. So, um, yeah. That's such, yeah, there's so many ways you can use this. I'm just so glad it's out there and I, I really do hope people do use them.

Lucy:

And I wondered, if you think maybe there's a scope for children to create their own comics to explore. Things that happen in the school day. Maybe philosophical questions, but also maybe just, you know, the real life practical things that happen, in the school day. It struck me that children creating their own comics of a similar vein could be really powerful. What are your thoughts on that?

Swapna:

1000%. Yes. Because. My, you know, for me, the way I've understood my feelings has always involved some sort of drawing or some sort of writing down a feeling. It's such a good way to kind of unpack how you are really feeling. So I could not stress enough that kids make their own comics based on certain things that happen, or questions or feelings or whatever's going on in their lives. Um, and, and a great way to start that is to lead by example. And I've often made comics with my child when he was little, and we've talked about different scenarios and things based on that, and it's so, so much fun first off, but also a really amazing way to kind of touch base with your child on what they value as well. So yeah, 1000% kids making comics. I'm there for it.

Yiting:

Yeah, and I, I mean like if Childrens have a big questions and like it is not in the book, in, not in this book, and maybe the parents can teach the children to draw their own the next chapter of this book. Like, yeah, they can use the dinosaurs, maybe they will create a new characters.

Swapna:

that would

Lucy:

that'd be great to have your own class version that you, that you've

Swapna:

Yes, A class dinosaur. Oh my God, that's so

Yiting:

Yeah.

Lucy:

Yeah, I love that. To finish the episode, we always ask guests if they had one comic or book about comics, to add to our to be read piles tomorrow. What book should we be reading next? I'm gonna go to Yiting First. Yiting What book would you recommend that we read?

Yiting:

Okay. There's one, I'm not sure if it is, famous or popular in the uk. It's called Spike and Susie is a series, is a Belgian comics, I believe.

Lucy:

Oh, I haven't heard of it.

Yiting:

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like a TinTin.

Swapna:

Oh, cool.

Yiting:

with between two, two, orphans. I think they are two orphans, but they are kind of brothers and sisters. I mean actually it's funny to think about like now is they are not raised in a regular family, I think is they, they live with their aunt, but the aunt, I don't think they're related or something. So it is quite modern setting in a way. And I just love the, they have ridiculous and magical adventure every time. So I, when I was a kid, I really enjoyed reading them. So that's my recommendation, spike

Lucy:

brilliant. I'm just having a little look at the illustrations. Yeah, that's a brilliant one. I've not explored that at all, so thank you for that Swapna what would your recommendation be?

Swapna:

Well, because I'm now living in Alero in New Zealand, obviously I'm picking up all the New Zealand finds that I have, so I, I've gone for this land. Which I think started off as a comic series. And Scholastic have wrapped it up in a beautiful book. and it sort of takes, lots of Maori legends and characters from those stories, including Maori gods and spirits. And then it brings it into like a futuristic world, and using the same characters and some of their superpowers and stuff that they've created. This thing, which is so much like a Marvel comic. So if you love Marvel, this is for you. But also if you've kind of, you know, maybe on the back of Moana, kind of heard a few, few of the characters like Maui and stuff like that. You, this is also for you because you kind of have had your. Toes dipped in the water, so to speak. And now you can learn a little bit more about those legends. So

Lucy:

well, I'm just looking at the cover of Book one. Looks amazing.

Swapna:

it's, so, it's very cool. So it's by Mark Abnet, I think he lives in Scotland now, but he's, he's originally a Kiwi, but the books are brilliant. So I finished the first one. I've got the second one ready to go, and they're just really go from the first page. It's really, really fun. See series. So that's mine, my recommendation,

Lucy:

That's brilliant. And actually the first link I've just clicked on when I was looking that up was, teacher's notes to go with it as well. So there's

Swapna:

Oh yes. Brilliant. Oh, Scholastic are so good at

Lucy:

on the Scholastic. Yeah, they're really on it. That's brilliant. Thank you. So the two brand new things for me to explore, so thank you for that.

Swapna:

say, can I be really cheeky?'cause I actually have two very cool things that I think the comic boom listeners might enjoy. So at the end of July, Jess Bradley from the Phoenix comic and I have something together. We have our first. Science nonfiction series coming. and the first one coming out is called, how to Save Your Granny from a Runaway Train. And it starts off with, starts off with a bit of a comic strip in each chapter and then some science to go with it, and then an experiment you can do at home. And it's kind of inspired by all the lockdown science I did with my son, because obviously we would do these things and he'd be like, when would I. Right. He was like, when would I ever need a pulley mom? Like, what's the point of this? And I'd be like, well, what if you need to hea a hippo out of a volcano? Ever thought about that? And so this kind of on the back of that, with real life science, and then also in September I have my first graphic novel series for young readers coming with Minky Stapleton. It's, called The Terrible Trio. It's set in a world where animals all have super. Powers and the three animals at the end of the queue when they were getting the superpowers. Get the worst superpowers. There's Marge who gets the ability to make mac and cheese. There's Barry the Lima, who gets the ability of kind of nice handwriting and then sadly, ze gets the power of being a zebra that can blend in with a zebra crossing. So they've got pretty rubbish powers. And they're trying to survive in a superhero world. And Minky, Stapleton's illustrations are absolutely brilliant. We are hoping for a monster launch because it's gonna be published, across all the scholastic regions of the world on the same day. Um, yeah, really fun. And in the whole bunch of countries, including Mongolia. Amazing.

Lucy:

Wow.

Yiting:

Yeah.

Lucy:

I just, yeah, you make me feel tired. You must be just, how are you doing this all? She's

Swapna:

I just have a lot of thoughts in my head. I have a lot of things in my head that need to come out.

Lucy:

They both sound brilliant. We keep our eyes peeled for those, for sure. yeah. Very, very exciting.

Swapna:

Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.

Lucy:

that you're, you just how much you embrace comics and use them in all different ways. I love it. That is the end of the episode now. Thank you both of you for joining me today.

Swapna:

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I just had such a great time.

Yiting:

Yeah, me too. Thank you so much.

There you have it. A great conversation with Swapna and Yiting. It was great to talk to them and I learned a lot. Really, really loved that book. so yeah, definitely recommended from me. Thanks to a LCS for sponsoring today's episode. As you know, like today, we often have writers on comic Boom speaking up about their work, and A LCS is a not-for-profit organization supporting its 120,000 plus members to collect money for all the secondary users of their work. Things like photocopies, digital reproductions, and they also produce some fantastic resources to support educators to explore topics like copyright and plagiarism in the classroom. so important in this day and age as, the line is ever finer, in the age of ai between, your own work and other people. So definitely something that's worth starting to explore at a young age. I feel you can check those out on the link in the show notes. And over the next few weeks we'll also be highlighting a few of those specific things that are available from A LCS. Now, my recommendation for this week is going to be, Ditching Saskia, a book that I read very recently published by Flying Eye. it's by John Moore with illustrations by Needles, and it is, absolutely beautiful for first off, the cover is stunning. it's got this gorgeous manga style illustration of, of a woodland on the front cover, and it's raining, but the rain is done in sort of dot varnish on the front, and it is. Really, really, beautiful, I mean if I read the description from their website, a heartwarming, supernatural Slice of life graphic novel, that's a really good, description because there is a slight supernatural element to it, but it is really about. Human interaction and relationships. It says here, gently weaves together tough everyday themes of identity, grief, and accepting flaws in those we love the most. I think a great one for fans of things like heart stoppers, but people who, who, who can, can take a little bit of, of supernatural, a little bit of kind of sci-fi. So the premise of the story is that in this world, you can purchase a flower which you can take it to a grave and talk to someone for a few days. You ha you're able to see, people who have died. and our protagonist. Damien goes to do that in order to speak to his mother, but a accidentally he summons Saskia, a a, an annoying little girl who kind of follows him around for a few days. Great kind of high school relationships story, a, a alongside that as well. I really recommend it. I really enjoyed the artwork, the storytelling and, and the characters. So that's my pick for this week. that's it from me. Thanks so much for listening again and for joining us back on this series. It's been great to see those listener figures rack up and see that people have got back into listening to the podcast. I'm always, always looking for that to grow, so please do share on whatever platforms you are on. A recommendation goes a long way. So, as promised last week, we now are set up and running on Blue Sky, so you can find us on Blue Sky Platform on Under Comic Boom. You'll also find, us on Instagram on at Comic Boom podcast and you can find us on x. That's on my Twitter feeds. That's at Lucy Braidley. And please do, yeah, share and share, share away. It's great to meet new ears and people who may not be familiar with the content that's come on. We are nearing our 50th episode. Very excited about that. There's lots of content there for people to explore if they haven't come across the podcast before. So really appreciate, the community of comic boom, doing their best to get the word out there. We will be back next week with another great episode. Lots of exciting things to cover this season. You've been listening to Comic Boom, which is hosted and produced by me, Lucy Starbuck Braidley. Thanks for listening.

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