Comic Boom - Comics in Education

Comic Boom - Comics in Education with creator Edward Ross

• Lucy Starbuck Braidley/Edward Ross • Season 6 • Episode 1

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In this episode Lucy chats to Edinburgh based comic book artist, writer and illustrator Edward Ross.

With an early and obsessive interest in cinema and comics, it wasn’t until after studying Film at university that he managed to combine these two interests in the form of his self-published Filmish comics. Well received by both movie fans and academics, Edward released four issues of the series between 2009 and 2013, before beginning work on Filmish – A Graphic Journey Through Film for SelfMadeHero. The book won a YASLA 2017 Great Graphic Novels for Teens award and has been translated into eight languages.

His second graphic novel Gamish – A Graphic History of Gaming  (for Penguin) explores the amazing history of games. A love-letter to gaming in all its forms, the book sheds light on why games fascinate and compel us.

His latest book is Graphic Novel Builder: The Illustrated Guide to Making Your Own Comics, a fun and accessible guide to creativity for ages 11+.

Edward has also worked on a number of science themed comics in collaboration with Dr. James Hall for universities, museums, charities and research bodies. He often runs comic classes and workshops.

This episode of Comic Boom is sponsored by ALCS, The Authors Licensing and Collecting Society.

Edward's recommendation:
I Shall Never fall in Love by Harry Connor

Lucy's recommendation:
Rune: The Tale of a thousand Faces by Carlos Sanchez

Connect with Edward:
www.edwardross.co.uk
Instagram: @filmishcomic
X: @edward_ross
Bluesky: edwardross

Follow the podcast:
Insta: @comic_boom_podcast
Twitter/X: @Lucy_Braidley
Contact: comicboompodcast@gmail.com

Music by John_Sib from Pixabay

Hello and welcome to Comic Boom, the Comics and Education podcast. If you are interested in hearing more about the crossover between comics and education, then this is the podcast for you. My name is Lucy Star Bradly, and each week I'll be joined by a fellow educator, an academic, a librarian, or a creator of comics, to discuss their journey into comics and provide some inspiration to influence your practice, and hopefully as well shine some light on some titles you can bring into your libraries and classrooms, and hopefully onto your bookshelves at home too. This episode of Comic Boom is sponsored by A LCS, the author's licensing and collecting society, and it is absolutely great to be back. We've got some brilliant episodes to share with you over the next few weeks. This season is gonna be split into two. We'll be running five episodes this term in the summer, taken a short break. And then coming back with another five episodes in the autumn term. I've got so much good content to bring you. thanks again to the brilliant A LCS, the authors licensing and collecting society for keeping the mics hot and the lights on for Helping me run the podcast again for another year. I really, really appreciate the support and I'll be talking a little bit more about their work at the end of the episode to kickstart this season of Comic Boom. I am talking to Edward Ross. Edward Ross is an Edinburgh based comic book writer, artist, and illustrator with an early obsession and interest in cinema and comics. It wasn't until after studying film at university that he managed to combine these two interests and form his first self-published comics. Film ish comics and we'll be talking a lot about that today. Edwards and I do go off slightly off track and talk a little bit about film, but I think it's really interesting'cause it's all part of his journey and really interlinked with his first graphic novel, film ish, a graphic novel through film, which was published by Self-Made Hero. that was an award-winning book and it's a really, really interesting read. And then he went on to create Gamish, a graphic history of gaming. I'm really interested in that link between different cultural elements, film games and comics, and how they all interlink and inform each other, and I find it a really fascinating conversation. we also talk about his latest book. Graphic Novel Builder, the Illustrated Guide to Making Your Own Comics, which is a fun and accessible guide to creativity for ages 11 plus. I think definitely one for year five and six would really enjoy in primary. so yeah, I'd, I'd nudge that a little bit earlier. To maybe nine, plus. Edward's also worked in a number of science themed comics in collaboration with Dr. James Hall for universities, for museums, charities to explain and bring to life the kind of scientific concepts that they're working with and bring that to a wider audience through, comics. It's a really interesting area, these science comics, and we talk about that as well. There was so much to talk about with Edward. I had an absolutely brilliant time. I think you really enjoy this episode. Here's what Edward had to say.

Lucy:

Hello Edward. Welcome to Comic Boom.

Edward:

Hi. Thank you for having me.

Lucy:

Can you tell us to start off, I always start the episode by, asking people to tell us a little bit about their journey as a comics reader. So when did you first start to read comics? When did that sort of become part of your life?

Edward:

I think as long as I can remember really, I grew up reading, the Beano and, uh, not the Dandy. I I was like a Beano head uh, always, even, even had a sort of element of, um, suspicion when Dandy characters ended up kind of joining the Beano. I was like, I'm not sure. I don't know. I dunno why. Um, but, um, but yeah, the Beano was huge for me growing up. I remember I had a huge, like an enormous stack. Almost falling over next to my bed

Lucy:

And did you know it was Scottish at the time?

Edward:

No, no, I didn't, I didn't appreciate it was Scottish for until I was, I think maybe still while I was still reading a bit older, but certainly not for a long time. But I know the, the, the legacy of Scottish comics is strong. Um,

Lucy:

Yeah,

Edward:

but I did obviously know that er, Willie and the Bruins were Scottish,

Lucy:

yeah,

Edward:

of hard to miss. I loved er Willie and I hated the Bruss. I dunno, I couldn't get with that, but, um, yeah, definitely the Beano and then we had, my brother had a sort of big stack of, um, those peanuts mini collections, and we had a bunch of those with the covers falling off. so I grew up loving those. And I think with peanuts and then with Calvin and Hobbs, which is my, my true love in comics.

Lucy:

too.

Edward:

I think that was, I think that's what sustained me kind of a bit older in a way. Because with, certainly, well with both of them, but with Calvin Hobbs especially, there's so much to go back to. So as you become an adolescent and then a teenager, you can actually go back and you just rediscover all these new things

Lucy:

the layers of meaning in it. Yeah,

Edward:

I was in a high school yesterday and when I was mentioning Calvin Hobbs, the blank stares,'cause obviously it's a cultural thing. It's not really relevant anymore. But I was like, oh, but you, I was just thinking if I could convince one of these kids to pick up Calvin and hopes that would be a win.

Lucy:

Yeah. if I do teacher training about comics. At the end I always like to share like the final, ever the last ever Calvin Hobbs where they like going off on a toboggan. I just think it's really poignant. I love

Edward:

Oh yeah. It's so good. Yeah, and I think to this day, I, it is something I aspire to in my own work where possible is just capturing some of that spirit, you know, uh, I guess like a, a mixture of kind of childlike wonder and, that sort of depth, that emotional and, and philosophical depth as well. I'm not, I'm not saying that I'm achieving that. I'm just saying that I would like to achieve, I would like to aspire to that. And, and I always keep that in mind as, as something that, that kind of level of, um, accessibility and then depth, you know.

Lucy:

Yeah. Yeah, it is incredible. and I think it because of the characters, I feel like people could easily just walk on by or like dismiss it with, without realizing quite how great it is. so in terms of this comic reading that you were doing, you when you were younger, who instigated that? Was that your, were your parents really supportive? Was it part of your reading diet at school? Were comics embraced in, in school as you were growing up, how did that fit in?

Edward:

de definitely. Yeah. No, definitely not exactly. You know, like there was, I, I can't remember even mention, I think it was definitely separated. It was two things. There was going home and reading comics, and there was going to school and, and not, you know, I think in a sense a lot of it was like. I mean, with the Beano, there's such a legacy in that. Like I think, you know, my dad probably read up, grew up, grew up reading it, and certainly my brother, who's a bit older than me grew up reading the Beanos. So I had, a legacy stack of, you know, seventies and or, and eighties Beanos, to get me started. So I think it, I think it was very much that it was kind of, they, they were around, around the house and um, and then my, my, uh, my nana used to, used to cut, we Oor Willie and the Broons out of, is it the Sunday post and post them to us,

Lucy:

Cute.

Edward:

very sweet.

Lucy:

And what is it that you think pulled you in? Was it, drawing, the artistic side, the story? Or was it that sort of essential combination of both?

Edward:

Yeah, I mean, I was like, oh, you know, I grew up definitely being a huge drawer and I was making comics probably from the age of about eight or nine myself. Um. So I think it was always the both of it. And I, yeah. Good. Any good question. I think I, I, I drew, I think I drew to tell stories, if that makes sense. So it wasn't like, and although I would've loved to have drawn better, I never was drawing to draw. Well, if that

Lucy:

As like practicing it as a skill, it was

Edward:

yeah. I was, I, I, I never really kinda got into, I mean, I did a bit of it, but I never really got into like, you know, drawing still lifes or, or, um, or even like, even like now, like I've barely done any, like life drawing, you know? So it's like, it was never, the technical end of it was never that, interesting to me. It was, it was always much more the opportunity to tell stories and to draw fun things and, and have, have fun with it.

Lucy:

Yeah. so we've heard a little bit about what you're reading when you were younger. What kind of things are in your reading diet now?

Edward:

I, I kinda went off reading for a really long time, I think in post university I fell off all my good habits of reading and of even what, like,'cause I went to study film and even like watching like interesting movies fell off for a while as well. It was

Lucy:

Yeah, I, I did film at uni as well, and I, I still haven't really picked it back up watching films. I just like, yeah, I want to, I've got children now. I find it, like, I feel like I'm got, sorry, this is slightly off track, but justifying, getting a babysitter to go to the cinema just seems, seems a step too far for me. I just, I feel like I'm gonna, when I'm in my next, the next decade, that's when I'm gonna read. That's when my indie film Love is gonna come back. I can feel it.

Edward:

so we, we were similar, but we had kids and, and that was like a big thing. And then, and then covid and then, and then kinda falling off that habit. So yeah, I have to say I've not been to the cinema hardly any in the last few years, but, um, what we started doing again, we're very much off topic, but what we started doing was, uh, having, um, home film festivals. So

Lucy:

Oh, cute.

Edward:

we'll pick a theme and then me and my partner will pick a bunch of films to watch together. So she'll pick some and I'll pick some, and then we'll kind of watch, watch along across a theme. And it's actually been a really fun way to get started again. And to also like challenge yourselves a bit because you're searching for. Those gems within that theme. So we did a season on train films, for example, film set on trains. uh, but that like, and you know, you end up kind of within that, you've got all sorts of things you can be drawing on. You can have thrillers, action movies, or you can have like intimate little dramas that are set in, you know, on a train or, um, so, so that's been a really good way for us to get back into watching films. And I, what I found it really interesting was I, you know, I guess through like turbulent political times and having kids and covid and all that, it's like you often turn to entertainment for that. Kind of just like, oh, just let me put something on. And you're not, you're not really emotionally prepared. Yeah, not really emotionally prepared to foc uh, to face, like having to feel something

Lucy:

Yeah,

Edward:

or, or think about something. But actually I find as soon as I, as soon as we start putting on more challenging movies, again. I was, um, oh, well I was feeling you, you do feel something, but also it's like really cathartic and, actually not actually that much hard work. I mean, I'm, you know, not putting on like, the most depressing stuff, but, but trying to, trying to watch something that that's like, got some resonance and actually the rewards far outstrips the, um, the potential. Like have you, you know, and essentially kinda perk up. So instead of like sitting there like

Lucy:

Yeah,

Edward:

slug, like on the couch, you kinda go like, oh wow, this is really engaging me. And you, you wake up

Lucy:

You've got

Edward:

you know?

Lucy:

Some processes going on in the brain rather than just, eh, which is my, my evening go-to at the moment. Um, that sounds great. But film is is relevant to your journey as a comics creator. Is it? Can you tell us a little bit about how you got started in Yeah. Making comics

Edward:

Yeah. So I, I guess beyond, beyond primary schools where I had my cartoon character Skipper, a cat that lived in a skip. Um, but, so I had that character running for, for years, you know, at high school it kind of dropped off the comics making. Um, I still was an avid doodler in the margins and I had sketchbooks that I would draw often, like sort of fan art of, characters from eels songs or, um, or like Bell and Sebastian lyrics or Manic Street Preachers lyrics, you know, my go-to teenage, uh, music, I was a lot of her angsty imagery in my sketchbooks. but my, now partner who I met when we were just like 16, and she actually sort of opened my eyes to the wider world of comics, so she, she reintroduced me to you. I had been reading. Calvin Hobbs and peanuts and things, and I'd, I'd start to get an inkling of like, there's cooler stuff out there, because as an avid Eels fan, he often featured like Adrian Toni, um, and like Seth in the, in the liner notes. So I I I was like, oh, this is cool. But I didn't like know

Lucy:

Now, back when music came with stuff around

Edward:

Yeah. Which, yeah, and exactly. I had a kind of cross pollination and, um, like around that time, ghost World came out as well, and I remember getting a copy of Ghost World. but yeah, my partner like, was like, oh look, all this stuff that, that exists out there, and it, it was like completely eyeopening and lots of like, obviously very angsty teenage stuff. and I, a lot of superhero stuff as well, but it really started me on a journey and, you know, she was on the same journey of, of just discovering this huge, wider world of comics. And this was all through the libraries here in Edinburgh that she would. Go out and, and pick up a bunch of comics and we'd read them. and there was a really, really good selection. So that's really what got, got started on that kind of further journey into reading. And then, inspired by that really I got back into make to making comics as well and sort of realizing that I could tell, stories more kind of, uh, engaging and interesting to me at that age, you know, essentially.'cause I think that's a real thing. Um, you know, I was in the school yesterday and I did a talk to the first year of high school, then the second year of high school. so like, you know, 11, 12 year olds and then I guess sort of 13, 14 year olds. And then, I mean, there, there's, there's two things going on here. But basically, you know, like I asked you how many people here read comics and when it was the first years they, they, you know, I dunno, like maybe 45% put their hands up. And then, and then for the older year, um, like two hands went up and I know there's other factors there. I know the factors about not wanting to stand out and all this stuff, but I

Lucy:

also just I wonder what their wider reading level is.'cause certainly my daughter's an avid reader. Reader, but she's in year 10 now, and that's just, there's just no time. It's just like revision and, yeah.

Edward:

Um, so, so there's multiple factors there. But I also wouldn't be surprised if, you know, that was for myself as well. Like the falling off happens in that, in that, in that age group. and you need something then to spark that again.'cause I think obviously comics have, um, that appeal to ev everyone potentially. And it's just finding the, the work that's out there and having yourself exposed to it and

Lucy:

Yeah, and I wonder if there's something, I'm just thinking aloud here. I've never really thought this thought before. but around like comics that bridge, that the age ranges, because like one, if you are kind of grown out of the stuff that you liked when you were younger and then you don't, but you don't know what to read next, then I think there's also that sort of breaking point where it's like, well, I can't read those things. I, my reader identity was attached to something that I'm no longer very interested in, and I don't know where to go next if you don't have that kind of

Edward:

I've seen, a lot of, I've seen some calls online recently from children's office saying that there's like a gap in the market essentially between, I, I mean, I don't really know what the markets are called. It's like middle

Lucy:

Yeah. And then ya

Edward:

like, n ya, and there's a kind of gap there that's like a transitional space where it is like the, ya can sometimes be a bit hard. but the kid stuff's too, kid kiddy, you know, they're, they're outgrowing, they're wanting, they're hunger for like emotionally resonant stories and, and they're a bit more depth and a bit more independence. And there's maybe a gap in the market there that needs, that

Lucy:

I guess that's where that also it is the fact that publishing is an industry as well becomes a bit of a, an issue in that reading dips off then, so there's not a market, and then it is like chicken and egg.

Edward:

a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. Yeah. so, back to my journey, I suppose. I got back into making comics, but I, I was like, I was always convinced from a very young age that I was going to be a movie director. I was gonna be a filmmaker. Um, but, you know, I'd grown up with these dual passions of film and comics essentially. And, uh, and so I went off to study film university. Um, but, I did a joint degree with, uh, English literature. And actually English literature was the thing that really sparked me, even though I was never like the biggest reader. But what I, what really interested me was just in the nature of the. Literature course was that we had all these like subunits about different topics. So we did like a, a unit on like, what was it? It was on, it was like on the, the body and horror. And um, I ended up doing an essay on like food and Horror in Under the Skin. It's a very longwinded story. Um,

Lucy:

loving the details.

Edward:

um, but that then like totally sparked something off in my mind because I was fa passionate about film. I was like, I'm gonna take this kind of,'cause the film course we were doing, it was never that granular, but I, you know, it was never like, oh, well look at this little fascinating element. It was, it was, the films had never quite captured me, but this thing did. So I kind of whisked that over to films. I did my dissertation on film and I did it on Food Horror in the Body in, Asian cinema. So this was like me taking like. My kind of nerdy passion for like this really niche little concept that really sparked all these ideas about food and horror and took over to film and that's where sort of filming started to fall together, I suppose. And when I came outta university, as I was still trying to pursue writing for film or, or writing a short film to make a short film, but I just wasn't getting anywhere because I didn't have like the self-confidence at that age. Probably don't have the self-confidence now to be honest, to like do the things necessary to like bring together a cast and a crew and funding and all that stuff. I was, it seemed so huge. I ended up just going of chipping away at a script for ages, almost like putting off the inevitable. But at the same time I got back into comics and making comics and, and kind of getting interested in this idea that with comics I could just do it. I could just put something out there and it would be much more easy and accessible. and I was working at the film house, independent cinema in Edburg at the time. they sort of saw what I was doing and someone suggested that I could just think for their newsletter about film. So that's where film ish kind of was first, inspired was to do a little thing for their, their newsletter. And there, from there I was like, oh, this is really fun. Like this is me taking, like loving that granular sort of, academic analysis of stuff that's come from these weird different angles and enjoying drawing and loving film and just that

Lucy:

That is something that kind of feels like really distinct about like the stuff that, the things people write dissertations on, the things people get into at university, and then you leave behind that really specific interest that chance. So it's quite cool to be able to have a avenue with which to still explore those aspects and find new things out. It's

Edward:

Yeah. And I always felt like, you know, I always really loved reading. Those papers on those weird little things that people had become fascinated with. But I also always understood them to be often quite hard to read, like quite hard to, especially for an outsider. So I also felt like there's all these like really interesting ideas buried in tech, in textbooks essentially. And I guess that's what film, you know, Filmish came in. I was trying to, I was essentially trying to go, trying to present these things to people and show like how interesting it can be to look at film from these different academic perspectives and to think about film in these new lights. But I wanted to do it in a way that was really, really accessible. Just really easy to read, or relatively easy to read.

Lucy:

Yeah. happened from there? So how, how did you end up with your first published book?

Edward:

so I started, yeah, so with, with film ish, you know, I wrote that little, a couple of little short ones for the newsletter at the film has, and I was like, I think my dad suggested like, why don't you put this to package this together and, make a little zine out of it. so I wrote another longer essay to kinda pad it out to make a sort of 20 page comic. I printed a hundred copies, um, just fully black and white thing, right? You know, it was like a pound of copy or something to print, and then took it into the film house where I was working and used, used my connections in as a box office person to put it on the, on the counter and put it on sale. So I sold them for three pounds each, the film house to take a little cut. And then I would, I just basically took the, the profits off of that and, and went and printed another hundred copies and, you know, saw, saw it roll from there. I did four issues, over the next few years, each one on a different topic. And, you know, from there like, it, it was just, I guess like a kind of cool indie thing that existed in, in Edinburgh and that people, picked up and thought was kinda interesting and cool. I started doing like comic conventions and selling at comic conventions. And I then probably around 2012, so only a couple years into doing film ish, like I started, I thought, oh, maybe I could do a book of this. so I started pitching to different publishers. And then finally, uh, in about 2013, so it's two years before the book came out, the editor at Self made Hero said yes to, to the idea of doing a book. And I was like, I was very happy indeed.

Lucy:

I was interested, you picked up on the kind of type of academic reading from university, but do you like to read nonfiction comics? Is that kind of your personal reading preference or, how are those two things linked really like your reading and, and your writing, or are they not? Do you read very different things to, what you produce in your own work?

Edward:

Yeah, I mean, as I said that, like I've been a bit of a bad reader.

Lucy:

Yeah.

Edward:

Non-fiction comics do interest me in as much as nonfiction subjects certainly can interest me. I think there's a real challenge at the heart of nonfiction comics because. Comics inherently are your words and pictures. And I find with some, you know, some, some nonfiction comics, I think struggle and maybe my own struggle with like that balance right between words and pictures and, you have like a really fascinating story or a fascinating history or a fascinating something that by doing it as a comic you almost just have to, you have to strip out so much because for it to be fully, realized in all its depth and complexity and detail, actually probably be better off writing a,

Lucy:

Yeah, it's not necessarily the best form for

Edward:

So it's not always so, so I do enjoy nonfiction comic, but I think there's a challenge, especially I guess as a, as a person who produces them. I, I'm a very acutely aware of the challenges when I read them

Lucy:

So you find you're reading them with a critical eye or like a, with, with the, the informed eye of like, wow, this would've been a nightmare to make this page.

Edward:

The, the nonfiction comics, mafia are gonna come and get me for saying that. But I think, but at the same time, I mean, obviously it's also really accessible. I think it's, it's dependent on the subject matter and how it's, how it's tackled. I mean with Filmish and Gamish as well, there's probably like 20 to 30 pages of end notes of all the things I couldn't fit in. And I think that's like, I think it in a sense speaks to that tension of like all the things you have to miss out.

Lucy:

Mm. But do you think with both of those, the fact that the thing that you are talking about is also a kind of multimodal medium? Was helpful?

Edward:

Yeah, no, I agree. Especially once I got into working on the book and when people started asking difficult questions like, why are you doing a comic about film? Why are you not doing a YouTube essay? yeah, you're translating the visuals of film into another art form, but by doing that, you've got an opportunity to step backwards so we can sort of allow for a more analytical eye and also kind of essentialize. So that's the kinda two things you're doing when you're, when I'm drawing these panels, is that it's allowing you to, to, to take that step back and, and more analytical and frame it in,, in a new way and I think that when it comes to nonfiction comics in general, that's the opportunity, isn't it? It's that you've got an opportunity to do something with the pictures. So when done right, it's really amazing because you're able to pull on the power of, of the imagery and pull and the power of the words at the same time, which is something that up that up just a textbook would never be able to do.

Lucy:

I'm, I'm hesitant to ask this question'cause it's slightly off track, but, and also, so apologies to listeners who are thinking, what is she on about? But I'm really interested also in this sort of link between comics and film I've heard it quite a few times, people describing particular sequence in, in a comic as being filmic. And I was like, well, comics came first and, and actually a lot of films actually start off as storyboards, which are comic like. And so I feel like there's actually between the two mediums, a really interrelated language that goes both ways that comics inform the way that films are made and vice versa. What do you think about that? This is what I spend my time thinking about.

Edward:

Um, yes. Um, yeah, I, I, I agree. I think, it's really interesting, again, kinda going back to when I present in schools and I sort of, one of the things I like to say is about how comics are essentially the extension of the oldest recorded form of communication in that like, the first recorded form of communication is like cave paintings,

Lucy:

Yeah.

Edward:

I guess maybe some carvings and some little sculptures and things. I'm not sure of the precise timeline, but it's one of the very variable fundamental ways that humans have communicated. and, and we kind of, I guess because humans like categorize, we're always kinda separating things out, aren't we? And we're like, well, this is this and this is that. But like, it's all part of this big long evolution, isn't it, of the cave painting through, which then kind of split into written language and continue to visual art. And then visual art eventually evolved into. Almost like lifelike paintings. And then this sort of, uh, desire to sort of capture chemically capture imagery through photography. And then that obviously very naturally led to taking multiple photos of very close, timing to produce the illusion of motion through film. So it's all kind of like really interlinked. It's kind of no surprise that the language is really interlinked as well. And I like that what you're saying, that, uh, comics came first and um, and yeah, they, I be, I'm interested actually'cause I think it's a very specific time historically, and if you look at kind of comics or kind of proto, they wouldn't even be proto comics, but like this before the kind of those elements had really kind of coalesced around the panel and that kind of se sequentially. I do wonder, what if you kind of took a, a comic, I've never looked specifically at a comic. Or that kind of image from 1895 and then the very first captured motion and like what similarities,

Lucy:

Yeah. Like at what point did things like, like closeups and particular different shot types, at what point did they start to come into comic language? Because you, in the ones that. I can think of that I've seen in very early comics, it is quite, you don't, you're not seeing the same sort of suite of techniques as are in the visual storytelling now. So I'm interested Yeah. I wonder where they intersect. You mentioned game ish. I, I really enjoyed that, book and I'm finding out about something that I didn't really know about. I'm not, although I, I did get a game, I did get a computer game for Christmas. Um,

Edward:

you get?

Lucy:

stray. You know, you're a

Edward:

cool. Yeah.

Lucy:

is really good. I'm the, I'm, I'm really into it. Um, occasionally I have to get someone else to come and do the really, the bits where there's lots of things chasing me. I'm not that good at doing it. I'm definitely in a house of gamers here. but, um, in terms of when you're selecting your projects, and I know, so obviously you've had an preexisting interest in film and a really good knowledge base. but you've gone on from that, your kind of starting point. Did you have to do a lot of research to create your books? Is it that an a topic that you're already interested in and then you kind of do a lot of research or how, how does that kind of journey come to being as informed as you need to be to actually make the the book?

Edward:

Yeah. So yeah, I mean, film ish was coming from obviously a place where I had a fairly good established understanding of the broad scope of film theory and some things I could touch on, and it really informed then the kinda chapter breakdown of that.'cause it in film ish, it's not like a chronological history of film, it's like a thematic, journey. It is called a film journey, you know, graphic journey through film. So it's a journey because it's like we start with the eye, we move onto to the body, and then it's like, I. Set, you know, set design and architecture and I can't remember what chapters you time and power and, you know, all these and technology. There's all these different themes that then I kind of crafted into something of a narrative. Ultimately there's something of a kind of logical structure to it. but within each of those chapters, you're jumping around through time and you're making all these different juxtapositions. Um, so I had kinda a lot of that though'cause I had a fairly deep well of film knowledge, fairly deep well of like, understanding of the different facets of film theory. So it was kind of a lot easier to get started and then to know roughly where to go to then track down the rest, with games, I mean, I didn't even get like a console until I was like in my twenties. I had friends who had consoles or, or PCs that could play video games, uh, as, as a kid and as a teenager. I wasn't like a big, big gamer. I was always like wanting to get invited right to friends' houses so that I could go and play their video games, or watch them play their video games. so it's a very different thing. And, and so there was definitely a challenge, not just in like my lack of that kind of deep lore of like, of having grown up, having played all the final fantasies and all the Marios and all the Zeldas, which whenever I listen to like video game podcasters, they know all that, you know, they already, they've got that deep well, so I didn't have that deep well, which obviously created like huge imposter syndrome going into it. But at the same time, it was just something I had to kind of embrace and, and understand that I was coming at it from a different. Different angle. Um, but it was, it was much more challenging. I think one of the things that's challenging, and it's really interesting, I mean there's many factors again, but like, I feel like game ish never really took off in the same way that film ish did. and I think part of the challenge, and I, I tried my best, but part of the challenge that I'm now aware of sort of five years since, it came out, is games just don't really have a, a stable canon yet. So whereas film, we have, more than a hundred years of film history. I mean, even if you go back a hundred years, you've almost already got like sound centers almost already coalesced into something, a language, so you've got this huge deep canon from across the globe. And not only that is. A huge amount of it's available and it's available on modern formats essentially. Whereas with video games, you've got a much shallower history of about, what, 60 years. but even then there is no, there is no chance of playing. You, you know, you can watch, you can, you can literally watch the first, you know, like the train coming into the station on YouTube, you know, that has been preserved. But like the earliest game experiments, there's just zero. There's no chance you couldn't play it. And even if you could play it, it would be like a, a recreation. and then from there, just going forward, it's like some of the stuff survived. And some of the stuff's been updated to be available, but so much of it hasn't. So there's just this really complex thing where it's like, it is, I guess it speaks to the fact that video games are art and technology and as we all know, if you ever picked up like an old, an iPhone it would like look alien to you, you and me even sure. How to use it to a certain extent, it would feel so old. And that's something that, that video games suffer from. Whereas if you, if you looked at a film from 10 years ago, you'd be like, that's so neat. you can go back 40 years. I mean, we're still celebrating films from 40 or 50 years ago as feeling kind of

Lucy:

Jurassic Park still looks good. I'm just gonna say it. It looks

Edward:

Yeah. I mean if you ask a teenager, they might not say that, but.

Lucy:

I'm really interested in, from a educational perspective, the way that comics can be built in the cross curriculum, and not just about the English curriculum or the art curriculum, but how they can be implemented in other areas of the curriculum. So I'd love to hear more about, the work that you've done in that area. in science.

Edward:

Yeah, so, at high school as I was an aspiring filmmaker, I was, you know, I wrote my friends in and we'd go into the woods and like run around making films and stuff. but we kinda continued to, to, you know, we'd make like little short films and we would, do drawings together and stuff like that. And he went off to. You need to study science. And I went off to, you need to study the arts to study film. And then, he was doing his PhD in Glasgow and he found that there was like this little pot of money for public engagement in his department. And so he came with the idea that we could do a little collaboration together. And the idea was that we co-write a comic, a short comic, and I would draw it. And then he, while I was busy drawing this comic, so this is, he was studying parasitology, he was studying, the parasite that causes sleeping sickness. So we did a short comic about these different parasites that the lab was working on. And he at, while I was drawing, spent his evenings sewing together a probably like three or four meter long giant parasite out of hula hoops and shiny material that we then took to the Glasgow. There's like a sort of mea festival in Kelton Grove Park. And so we took this almost like, you know, like a Chinese dragon on sticks. The scientists were sort of dancing through the park amongst all these other, other floats. And then we were handing out comics to people as as we went. So that sort of started our collaborative journey and that really, I, at that time, I certainly wasn't aware of it, but there, I don't think there was much in the way of like public engagement, science comics out there. And we were kind of, we were certainly making it'cause we went along and hadn't seen any other stuff. and it was really popular amongst the, the labs, the people were like, this is a really good way to create a very accessible, succinct sort of, uh, encapsulation of the work we do. And so over the course of, about 15 years now, we've been working together sort of on and off on these different projects together. And then I've sometimes done some on my own with other labs. We basically did one for every single parasite that this lab studies. I've done one on, microfossils at the bottom of the ocean that they take core samples from the bottom of the ocean using this like huge long, this ship of fires in this huge long drill. And it pulls out core samples, and then they can analyze that to find out climate change over the course of millions of years. And it's just been like a really interesting, way to engage with all these different subject matters. And, um, and I, I think a really good way for labs to be able to reach out, have something like really tangible. You know, we, we, we, most of the projects we print a little. You know, little comics that they can then hand out at science festivals and go to schools and things like that. Um, and then they have them online as well,

Lucy:

I think it could be. So you, you could, I could just see this being used so much in school, like children making their own comics to, explain content that they learn out in all sorts of different subjects. I think it'd be really good.

Edward:

there's a school that, that I go and teach the kids how to make their own science comics. You know, give them the kind of lowdown how to think about it and, um, the tools, you know, as a comic artist, the kind of things they can, they can do. And then every year they'll take the science that they're learning. And then they produce a, their own piece of public engagement essentially. And then I get to look at them all and kind of feed back to the, the kids about the work they've done. So it's really amazing because I think it's like a, you're right, it's like a really powerful way, I think, to use comics in the classroom. I think there is such an untapped potential because through making a comic, you're having to like think about what you've learned. You're having to sort of synthesize it and, essentially boil it down and work it out because you have to break it down to all these panels. So there's such a lot of learning that's done. I mean, for me, it's like, that's precisely what I do is when I make a science comic, when um, lab reaches out to me, you know, we sit down and I normally pair out with a scientist and I sit down and we work out maybe the structure, the types of things we wanna talk about. And then I just get'em to explain it to me. And if I don't understand a bit, I ask them to explain that and dig. I really dig into it. And so all that stuff never makes it into the comic, but by me understanding it, I know I can then translate it to something that other people can understand as

Lucy:

yeah. In order to simplify something, well, you have to understand the complicated version of it, don't you? That's the thing.

Edward:

Yeah. I think you are in this, annoying and troubling time of AI I think schools are. Really dicing with, with potential trouble there when, when, with kind of any kind of use of AI in a sense. You're relying on someone else to do the work for you, you're never gonna learn it. You're only gonna just accept the regurgitate, which is exactly what AI does, it regurgitates and not even accurately. So get the kids to regurgitate, get the students to regurgitate for you. Um, because not, not literally. Um, because that's the, I think that that's the learning, right? The, the learning is the taking is the coming to understand it and then working out how you can communicate it.

Lucy:

Your most recent book. Graphic novel builder. let's come onto that now'cause it's a really brilliant thing. I love it. Can you tell listeners about the book, how the project came about to do a little bit of an intro for somebody who might not have seen it yet?

Edward:

Yeah, so A graphic novel builder is, the Illustrated Guide to Making Your Own Comics is the subtitle. And it's, a book that was commissioned essentially by Collins. So they got in touch with me interested in making a book for that audience. So they felt there was an underserved kind of, I guess that kind of 11 plus. They said, you know, the, the young teenage an onwards age group,'cause there's lots of books for, younger kids about making your own comics and there's lots of books. You know, there's like Scott McLeod's making comics and

Lucy:

Maybe a bit older. Yeah.

Edward:

of quite good stuff for, adults, essentially. Although I absolutely appreciate that teenagers can, can read those and get looked out of them. but there wasn't, they felt, there wasn't something in the market that, that just captured that kind of budding teenage, like wanting to be creative and wanting to make comics space that was like trying to make something accessible in that sense. And so they got in touch with me and I was, I was like, again, you know, as I said before, uh, I'm obviously a, I guess like a lot of artists, uh, get a lot of imposter syndrome. And I think the imposter syndrome for that was extremely intense. The idea that, you know, who, who am I to tell anyone how to make comics? I don't know what I'm doing. What am I doing? Um, so I had to, I, I really had to think about it what have I got to offer? so what I kinda tried to tap into with it, um, and what you see in the book is that I, I thought, well, you know, in my previous books, it's been me, you know, a, a bearded adult man,

Lucy:

Yeah. appearing as a character

Edward:

and like that. I was just like, that cannot be, I obviously can't do that mean also because and I take that, you know, I very much a compliment. People compare like, you know, film ish and gamish to like Scott McLeod, you know, Scott McLeod for film or whatever.

Lucy:

But where if you put the genre and the all, like the subject matter and that technique together,

Edward:

I just returning back to source, but also just like, also like, I think fundamentally like what I sort of, you know, while I was trying to find like, what's my voice here? What am I trying to achieve? And I was like. Going back to thinking about, you know, me as a teenager making films in the woods with my friends and doing all these great projects with my, you know, friend I still get to work with. I'm really, you know, so great that I get to work with my, you know, one of my best friends from high school to this day. But I very acutely remember that feeling of being a teenager and being creative and what that's like. And also when I go into schools as well, it's just so delightful to meet young people creative and who have this like, burning desire to make things. It's so amazing. So I was like, I've gotta capture that because that's like really speaks to such a specific experience of being a creative kid. so what I decided to do was to, to essentially create this little cast of, Teenagers who are the comic makers. So they're the, they're your guides through the book. There's five kids. Each one's a representative of a different element of making comics. So there's, there's the, you know, the pub, the sort of publisher one who's like, likes to man the comic stall and, and do the marketing and things. And then there's the writer and inker, the artist, you know, and the colorist. And then there's the designer, kid who's kind of into making like weird little zines and like hiding in people's shoes and things, you know, that kinda slightly anarchic, creativity. that was really when I realized like, oh no, this is something that I'd really like to do and that I, that I feel like I'm able to do. and I do obviously have a lot of knowledge. I mean, I have been working in comics for 15 years, but it was very easy to, to, when you look at everyone else's work, to convince yourself that you've got nothing to say because everyone else seems so much more capable and,

Lucy:

Yeah. But the reality of the situations that everyone else is also sitting there feeling, feeling like their own levels of self-doubt and things, aren't they?

Edward:

so, in the end, it was really fun after I got over myself, it was a really fun, fun one to. To be offered to do and then to take kind of ownership of as well. And part of that was, I think their original vision for it was actually, it was gonna be maybe a bit more like a workbook. So it was going to be, you know, maybe like you could fill things in or And in all my wisdom when, you know, they also said, oh, we, you know, we need this by, or we'd really like this by May next year, and all my wisdom, I was like, yes, I will do it, but only if I get to make it all comics and have to draw it all

Lucy:

Yeah.

Edward:

and make it full color and turn it into like a graphic novel level piece of work rather than a workbook that's like, I do a bit writing and then someone does the graphic design at the other end. so I kinda made a rod from my own back by turning into a bigger project, but I was really inspired to do that, and I felt of all these different ways that I could use comics to take the reader on a journey through how

Lucy:

Mm. I think it works so well. It's great. I loved it. and I definitely recommend anyone listening, I think you could even, it could definitely sneak into the top end of primary as well, I think.

Edward:

the last two years of primary school and then also the, the number of adults, even a few like professional, like, you know, artists who have been like, oh, I found that really useful. I'm like, don't,

Lucy:

That's great. But that's what I wanted to ask you. Like, did you also find out new stuff that you, because they've, like, it's such, comics are such a broad spectrum, like there have to be things that only maybe only apply in particular genre or there parts of the process that you unlocked as well through, through the process of

Edward:

Yeah. And in, in a lot of ways, like, because my previous two books and most of the projects I've done previously have been, mostly not narrative. And I'm really interested in moving towards doing more narrative work. And I have been doing a bit more, some of the science comics we've done in the last few years have been, we've done the series, called Luna and Simon, and that's been, we've basically been given, creative license essentially because, my friend Jamie is now high up enough in his career that he's running his own lab. So, so we are now working together as we want. So we've got a bit of creative license. So we went for like a real, kinda, it's a bit of like a Calvin Hobbes homage, this, little girl and her big brother, and they go on these like, adventures in science together. So I've been working slowly towards being much more of a narrative. Storytellers through comics and I really enjoyed that as well. I think the reason that I, for so many years, shied away from it was'cause I never felt confident in drawing the same thing twice. So, film ish was perfect for me because although I, I, the only thing I'd have to draw twice would be myself. but basically the, the credit I can give myself is realizing the hack for drawing things more than once.'cause I work digitally. I just draw a character sheet for that character, like a turnaround showing all different angles on them. And then I use that as a basis for the next drawing, which I didn't realize until like three years ago that I could do that. And it feels like a cheat, you know, so many people are so amazing at drawing stuff from scratch each time. but I save so much time by at least having that basis that I can put in there. as a rough in the background, I can then use as the basis And then the other element that I feel like I really learned and was forced to learn was coloring because I've never been a confident colorist. I still not really a confident colorist, I'm guessing there. And that was a lot of it was to do with, having to work out how to teach the reader the basics of coloring, which I think, I never went to art school. I never really learned. And when I picked stuff up, I often end up creating very, like, muddy colors or because of the nature color theory where like one color next to another color changes your perception. You can put in a color going, oh, that's a vibrant color, and put in another color, and suddenly everything's really muddy. And I never realized what was going on essentially. So really working on the, the coloring sections has helped me a lot because although it's quite, stripped back and, and simplified information about coloring, I think it should, it helps me just to be able to refer to, you know, a few simple points. And your coloring confidence can really grow.

Lucy:

Yeah. I think it's, there's so much in there. I just think it's something that people can go back and keep dipping in as well. You can access the information and, and have a go and then you can come back and like right now, this time I'm gonna, I want to really make sure I get my color in right or get my character silhouette right or whatever and keep going and dipping back into the information. I think it's great, really good resource. So at the end of the episode, to pick out a few kind of highlights or messages or something from your expertise or your experience going into schools that teachers, educators, listening, librarians might be able to put into practice, in their own settings. Anything that you would like to kind of summarize or emphasize at the end of the episode.

Edward:

Yeah. I my big takeaway I felt from our discussion and, and when I was thinking about it beforehand, was. I'd love to see, I would definitely love to see more comics use in the other, the other parts of the curriculum. I think that's really powerful. I mean, we talk about science, I've done the science stuff. but you know, I think there's so much scope in like history and sociology, you know, sociological type subjects and, and you literally everything. Right? Um, I always talk to young people when I go to schools about, when you're creating something, create something that you're passionate about as like the very fundamental element. And I think the good thing about comics in a sense is that, you know, a lot, a lot of young people will struggle with certain subject matters. You know, the subjects in school, like they might struggle, they might not enjoy X or YI. Subject at school. So by bringing in something like comics, which they might have a passion for, or that brings quite a lot of fun because even if you're not a passionate about comics, there's like a, there's a certain anarchy and like fun to getting to do something like a comic. So I think it's a really good way to engage anyone, but engage students with a new way of looking at a subject that they might not be enjoying as much So there's a way to bring something in and from a teacher's perspective, hopefully like lightening up the curriculum a bit and, and, and adding a, a, a twist on things for them, but also from teacher's perspective. It's a really good way to see their learning. That's the thing is that you can see their learning through the thing that they produce. It's providing those opportunities as well, isn't it? So providing the option. So potentially, I mean, you know, I realize that teachers are really stretched and that they might not always have time to put this into action, but, you know, potentially having the option to make a comic as as, your response to an essay question or something. You don't need to draw, you can draw on those stick figures If you want. That's fine. They can be stick figures and you can do the closeup of the stick figure and the far way if if that's if that's gonna be a barrier for entry.'cause some, you know, some young people won't find. Confidence in their drawing. which is a shame. I feel like whenever I go into schools, there's certain, there's always one or two kids in a class who are like, can't draw. They can draw. But like there's, there's a kind of barrier where, where it's like they feel ashamed of like

Lucy:

Yeah. It's, it's a thing, it's a bit for me, like people talk a lot about in education, about kind of confidence in maths and how that dwindles and, I think drawing is another one of those. Things, you know, young children aren't embarrassed about what, whether their drawing looks like something or not, they're really free and just making marks and will tell you what it is. And it's you that's daft If you dunno, it's not, it's not their drawing that's wrong. but then there, there's some sort of level of self-conscious that comes and, and I think part of that is also married to the fact that we, wean children off of drawing and writing at the same time. And it's start saying that writing is kind of the more important form and then drawing starts to not exist as a communication tool. It's a thing that just should look like some, an aesthetic thing, not a communication tool, in a school setting.

Edward:

Yeah. No, that's a really good point. Yeah. Making and that's, that is maybe where comics can come in really useful is because you can say it is about communication. You're using images to communicate, and it doesn't need to be super realistic or anything. It's just about communicating. And then also, I guess you can say like, think of it as like the plan, the planned version that you then present to the professional artists or whatever. You can, you can call it like the rough draft, but make sure it contains all the information we need.

Lucy:

Yeah. And that's a good way of thinking of it. Brilliant. So finally, this one stumps people quite often. But if we were to add one comic or book brackets about comics To our too be read piles tomorrow, what would you recommend that we read?

Edward:

So I was going to recommend I Shall Never Fall In Love by Harry Connor, which is, a book that shares a book birthday with me. And not only that, but I got, I met Harry at the Bookshop when they were going to sign their books. We kind both came to the shop at the same time and I was like, happy book. Happy Book birthday. Um, so it's a, it's a queer regency era romance, so it's like a kind of like a, a kind of queer Austen kinda story. sorry, you know, almost like Austen meets Alice Oseman. Um, and it's really fantastic. and also what's really fantastic is they're speaking to what we were talking about earlier is that the back of the book has all these, all these notes about how they research the book. So because it features like a trans character and. A black character as well. It talks, it, it dispels myths about the non-existence. You know, there's all these myths about the, the past was like straight and white essentially, but actually obviously all sorts of people have always existed. So, so it's, it, it is actually sort of the back. It says like, it goes through the research that was done and then all also amazing research about like, locations and clothing and hairstyles. So all speaking again as well to the, to the, to historiography and comics and So not only is it like a sweet romance, you know, for, for a sort of ya audience and, and adults. It's also, like really, really real well researched and shows that research in the back. So for the history nerd, you can go to the back and get all that. I, I mean, I, I put that in film as well, but I love that, you know, I love going to the back and like getting the kinda behind the scenes. Um, so that's great. Added value.

Lucy:

that sounds, great. My daughter would definitely love that. so I'll be trying to get hold of a copy of that for her. She'll really enjoy it and I'm sure I'll read it to you when it comes. That's my, that's my secret comic buying route that

Edward:

Oh, nice.

Lucy:

there's only so many I can buy for myself and then I start buying them for my children, the ones that I wanna read. Um,'cause I don't appear to be generous. and supporting my children's reading, but, you know, that sounds amazing. Thank you so much. And thank you. I feel like that has been a, such a good conversation. I've really, really enjoyed it and I've loved, the level of. Geekery that we could get to. So thank you for being my match on that. I really appreciate it.

There having it. Thanks so much to Edward for spending time with me to talk about all of the things that interest him. I really loved it. It's been so great to get back into recording the podcast, back into conversations with people. I always find I learn something. There's never a conversation I have where I haven't been kind of nudged to think of things in a slightly different way or think of how things could be applied in a different way in the classroom. I find it really, really interesting. So thank you, Edward, for all of your great insights. Excellent recommendation there too. I'm gonna add my own recommendation, and I'm going to, I've been reading quite a lot of books recently. I've been doing some judging for some book awards. But one that I've straightaway been recommended it to other people. And I know that it's picked up some accolades recently as well. Winning the Ward Stone Children's Book awards Is Rune the Tale of A Thousand Faces by Carlos Sanchez. Published by Flying Eye and it's a beautiful fantasy, I would say from age eight plus, maybe with more interest the older. There's some, it's not necessarily about suitability, but just interest level. I think probably that nine, 10 years old plus, a really beautiful comic, gorgeous pastel tones, a portal adventure. These two children go into another realm. I love that kind of setup. And this has got something really unique about it. So the best friend's characters, Chiri and Dai Chiri, is deaf. And she, she uses sign language and you see the sign language being used in the comic panels and then there's kinda speech bubbles coming off from the sign language. it is really cool concept. And then that is also a key part without telling too much the use of sign language is also something that's really key. In this other realm that they go into a brilliant, magical adventure. And it is very, very beautiful and a great story and some really interesting concepts within it. So definitely want to look out for, I've been recommending that to people, over the last few weeks'cause it really, stayed with me after I read it, which is always a really good sign. Thanks again to a LCS for sponsoring today's episode. As you know, we often have writers and on comic boom like Edward, speaking about their work, and A LCS is a not-for-profit organization supporting it's 120,000 plus members to collect money for all of the secondary uses of their work. Things like photocopies, digital reproductions, even be the book being used in education and they. Also provide some really fantastic resources to support educators to explore topics like copyright and plagiarism in the classroom. And you can check those out on the links in the show notes on the ALCS website. They've got some excellent educational resources there, which I think, uh, is really important, especially in this age of AI that we think, um, really carefully about plagiarism and making sure that creative individuals are credited for their, for their own genius. Essentially and not just ripped off. I always get a little bit, I feel, a little bit sad when I see these, things like, you know, recently there's been a big trend of, producing images in the style of, studio Ghibli and I. And that's somebody else's genius. There. Don't, don't rip it off using, using ai. so there's lots of different resources available for teachers, on the A LCS website. and over the next few weeks I'll be highlighting a bit more of their work. You can also go back, they sponsored the last season of Comic Boom and there's interview on the end of. At the last three episodes, talking to Barbara, their CEO, about their work, and we talk about ai, and then the importance of putting some parameters, to ensure that people's work is protected, in the age of ai. So I found that a really interesting conversation. You can go back and listen to that and I'll put those links in the show notes too. But as, for me, since the last episode, quite rightly, there's been a real shift, um, away from certain social media platforms I'm still going to be promoting. The show on X.'cause I think that's where most people hear about it. But I am also going to be trying to bring in some new, social media platforms, into the mix as well to try and reach as many people as possible. So if you can share the, the podcast. We are on Instagram. We are on Twitter. We will be on Blue Sky. I will get that sorted. And do, let me know, drop me a message if there's a platform that you think will be really, really good for getting the word out there, reaching teachers, librarians, anyone interested in comics and education. Really love to have a bit of feedback on that. Because I'm wanting, to move away from quite toxic, social media, sites, but still obviously think that the work in of the podcast is really important and I want to help, it find its audience, in the best way possible. So yeah, do drop me a line if you've got any suggestions and as always, your recommendations, sharing with your colleagues, sharing with people that you know might be interested is always, really important, especially at the start of a new season. So if you can do a bit of liking and sharing, I would love you forever. That's it from me this week. We'll be back with another episode next week you've been listening to Comic Boom. With me, Lucy Starbuck Braley, the producer and host. Thanks for listening.

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