Comic Boom - Comics in Education
An education podcast exploring the use of comics in education. Each episode I’ll be joined by a special guest from a wide range of backgrounds, from passionate education professionals to academics and industry experts. I'll be exploring a wide range of perspectives in the search for information and inspiration. Listen in if you’d like to grow your understanding of the theory behind comics, discover the most effective approaches to using comics and graphic novels in your classroom and gain inspiration from passionate comics creators.
This season of Comic Boom is sponsored by ALCS, The Authors' Licensing and Collecting Society! Find out more about their work at www.alcs.co.uk
Comic Boom - Comics in Education
Comic Boom - Comics in Education with comics creator and former laureate Hannah Berry
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Lucy chats to comics creator Hannah Berry.
Hannah Berry is an award-winning comics creator, scriptwriter and campaigner. She is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature and was appointed UK Comics Laureate 2019-21. Editions of her books have been published in the USA, France, Holland, Serbia and Italy, and she has been a guest of and speaker at over 150 comics, literature and arts festivals and events around the world.
Find out more about Comics Cultural Impact Collective.
Follow Hannah on social media:
Twitter/X: @streakofpith
Insta: @streakofpith
Links to everything discussed in this episode can be found on the podcast padlet.
You can SUPPORT the podcast by buying a comic or buying me a comic at: https://ko-fi.com/lucysb
Producer and Host: @Lucy_Braidley
Contact: comicboompodcast@gmail.com
Hello and welcome to comic boom the comics in education podcast If you're interested in hearing more. About the crossover between comics and education, then this is the podcast. For you. My name is Lucy Starbuck Braidley at each week. I'll be joined by a fellow educator and academic librarian or a creator of comics to discuss their journey into comics. And provide some inspiration to influence your practice. And hopefully as well, shine some light on titles, you can bring into your libraries, your classrooms, and also onto your bookshelves at home as well. Today I am joined by the lovely, the brilliant and the very. Very funny, Hannah Berry. The Hannah is an award-winning comics, creator, scriptwriter, and campaigner. She's a fellow of the Royal society of literature. very fancy. And it was appointed UK comics Laureate from 2019 to 2021. Editions about books have been published in the USA, France, Holland, Serbia, and Italy. And she's been a guest speaker over 150 comics, literature and arts festivals and events from around the world. Hannah's first graphic, novel Britten and Brulightely was published by Jonathan Cape in 2008. She then went on to publish her second graphic novel Adam tine, which is now being optioned to be made into a film, a horror film, which is really exciting. That's just news straight out this week. We don't talk about that in this. Episode because it hadn't happened yet but very excited to hear that hannah has loads to speak about as her bio says she has spoken in a lot of different comics festivals I've heard her speak at education conferences and we talk about a lot in this episode we talk about gender in comics we talk about The subtlety of comics and how they can be used And. And Explored in so many different ways and lots of lots of different takeouts quite varied conversation with her about her role as comics laureate as well and of course her journey to becoming a comics creator I think she's a very lovely human being really great person to have a chat to here's what hannah had to say
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604Hello Hannah, welcome to Comic Boom.
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601thank you for having me in Comic Boom.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604You are very welcome. To start off with a standard intro for guests is to ask them to tell us a little bit about their journey as a comics reader, first of all. Where did that all start for you, way back when?
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601Way back when I was young. Um, I, I'm actually not sure what my first comics would have been but I would, I definitely, I really cut my teeth on comics by reading Calvin and Hobbes. That was my main my main comics fodder growing up. They're just the best. And I remember that I was, I was definitely at least six at the time because I know that Calvin is six and he has a very grand vocabulary. And I remember thinking, oh, I wish that I could, I wish I knew as many words as
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604You had vocabulary, jealousy at age six? That's quite impressive.
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601Well, you know, I was very advanced. I just, I just relaxed, relaxed and evened out. And now I'm just sort of average, but I was a very clever kid. of course, uh, and I used to read, Obviously Raymond Briggs, of course Raymond Briggs, you know, the snowman and Father Christmas and all of those. And, maybe not When the Wind Blows until I was a bit older, I think. My aunt used to send over from Canada the funny pages, so I was reading things like, Hagar, Hagar? Hagar and the Horrible? And Doonesbury. And Kathy, and things like that, things that, like, the, the, the cultural context, no idea what was going on there, but, but, for the large part, but I just enjoyed the format, and it was, it was, uh, really fun to read. And so that was my, um, that was my way in, I mean, comics were quite, they were, they were, there was never a point where I was told, you know, you shouldn't be, you should be reading proper books, you should be reading serious things. Especially as such a clever child as you definitely are. That never, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just, it was normal reading fodder in our household. And
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604And did you maintain that interest throughout? Was there ever a time period where you were like less interested or have you always carried that
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601do you know what? There was, because I, I wasn't really into I wasn't really into a lot of the comics that were available to me as a young person growing up in the 90s. So I wasn't, I wasn't especially into 2000 AD or any of the, I don't even know if girls comics were around in those days. But I just didn't, I really didn't like anything that was, Strictly gendered looking, maybe because of my, my own attitudes towards genders. You know, I'll approach it with a long stick, I suppose, but you know, I, I didn't really want to be anything that was like, this is for you. You have the appropriate genitalia for this particular material. So, and even though 2000 AD wasn't like that, that's how that's, that's how I thought it was. So I avoided everything and thought there was nothing really. I assume there was nothing for me to read. There was no, after, all these shorter comics as a kid, I didn't really, there wasn't massive amounts around for me to read, growing up. I remember reading the comics adaptations of, The Color of Magic and the Light Fantastic, the Terry Pratchett books, which kind of rekindled a bit, but there was nothing, there was nothing that really brought me back into comics properly until about the time I went to art school. Um, my mum went to Brussels and came back with an armful of bande desine and they were, they really opened my eyes, because they, they were, I can't read French, I should say, I have no idea what they said, but the, oh, it was clearly for adults, it was clearly, you know, mature content, not mature content, because, you know, my mum brought them back for me, but it was clearly. It was clearly something which was designed for an older reader and I really loved that kind of sophisticated artwork and it really drew me in and so from, I'd always, I guess I'd always been doing my own comics but that, that really made me realize this is what I'd like to do even if there's not, there's not a career in it in, in the UK in any form. I'll just pursue this, I'll just do it my own time and see what happens and that is, that is what happened.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604Very cool. So what were you doing at art school? You were, were you doing fine art, were you doing
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601I was doing illustration. I was, I think, It would have been, I did a, what did I do? I went to Basingstoke Technical College, Did a National Diploma, and then I
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604Did you? I know, I'm not far from Basingstoke, I'm in
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601Oh, no way! I grew up, uh, just outside of Basingstoke. Fun times. Fun times. Aww.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604there we go.
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601I didn't realise. and then I went to, uh, Brighton Uni to do illustration. And, you know, there was no, no disrespect meant to, to Brighton University's illustration course of the early noughts. But, it was not, they were not enamoured with comics especially.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604You're the second person that said that to me in recent times, that Jess Bradley was talking about, not Brighton, but a different university that she did illustration at, and yeah, that it just was, it was very frowned upon.
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601Yeah, it was seen as being really puerile. I mean, I did do a couple of comics, and because the main thing that I learned in illustration in this course was that every single thing has to have meaning. Everything sort of, lends itself to like a greater understanding of what you're trying to get across. So whenever I did something as a comic, people would say, oh, you're trying to say it's puerile and it's for kids. I get you. It's like, no, no, no. I've just done it sequentially. So it, it always backfires. So I just did comics, which I did for myself. Didn't for me. Nobody has to see these, And
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604And so she did kind of small press publishing, with
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601what, what, what I did, I, I tried to do small press publishing one time, and you know how you, the ideas that you do, uh, lots of, lots of copies at a small cost and you, you know, get as many as possible and you distribute far and wide? What I did was do a few copies at very high cost, like, hand bound, like, Proper, proper binding. I don't know what I was thinking, but there's a group of us that went to the London Artist Book Fair, and I didn't do especially well there, but what, what I did do was, Whilst I was studying, they, at the very end of the course, they said, Right, everyone go away and do whatever you need to do to fill your portfolio for this last project. And I thought, well, what my portfolio is desperately missing is a nice, big, juicy comic. And so I started working on the comic that then became my first graphic novel, Britain and Bruleightly. and I, uh, I can't, I don't think I had anything to show for this first project. I got a feeling it was just a script. and maybe three or four pages of not especially well drawn comic. so I graduated and, obviously did what every art student does, which is go into, non arty jobs. I was, you know, temping, working at blockbusters, the classics. And I thought I'll just, I'll just see if anybody's interested in this graphic, or just check, because I would quite like to do this as a career, otherwise oh god, oh god, what can I do in my, in my life? so I sent a letter to Jonathan Cape and to, and I can't remember if it was Vertigo or Dark Horse, one of the two, whichever one it was, they never replied, so um, screw them. But Jonathan Cape wrote back and said yes, tell us what you have, send it to us, we'd be interested. This, this would've been 2005. So, I mean, there wasn't, it was sort of the, the start of the, of the graphic novel comic resurgence, like the graphic novels on the shelves of Waterstones kind of resurgence. And there wasn't, there wasn't a huge amount about, but anyway, so I sent it to them and they said, yeah, we'll have that. And that was, that was really the start of my whole career from that stupidly simple exchange. But I think it was, it was really just being in the right place at the right time. Because they published Posey Simmons and they published, Jimmy Corrigan, Chris Ware's, award winning in a UK book. Probably, maybe it's won awards in the States as well, I'm not sure. and a few others, Joe Sacco, and they, they thought, well, there's, maybe there's some, maybe there's some homegrown comics people interested in putting out graphic novels. And then at that, at that point I happened to get in touch, so it was very much, very, very, very, very much the right place at the right time, which is
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604perfect timing.
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601Perfect timing.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604If you think about, Your early educational experiences pre university, can you identify anything that really you think particularly, helped you. on the path to becoming the person you are today, the comics creator you are today.
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601Well, I always really, I really love writing. I really love creative writing and I really love drawing and the two were never, I don't think they're ever together, but the two separately I had fantastic teachers, all the way through school. I have a, I have a post it note somewhere that my English teacher Miss Dignam wrote saying, What are you, what are you going to do with your life? People will pay to read your writing. Which is just the nicest thing that anybody had ever said at that point. Probably still since it's the, it's the nicest post it note I've ever received. And I was quite, I guess I was quite studious. In a way, I don't know, I've been, I've been thinking about this a lot recently, but I've recently, I've very recently realised that I've got ADHD, and I've been asked to look back over my childhood and see the signs when it, you know, when it manifested, and there was, it, it's really hard to pinpoint any I think the way that I made things interesting was by making, to myself, in order to do the actual work, was by making essays funny, and by making drawings, like doodling on everything. And so the two, those two kind of weird coping mechanisms have kind of bled into my actual career. Which is, uh, a bit of a weird one.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604And do you think that drawing itself kind of helps you channel your thoughts and channel this kind of the story and the narrative that you want to get out?
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601I think so. So, well, hmm. Sometimes. I find that I'm more about writing things down on a on a, you know, on an editable document definitely not on a piece of paper, but on like a on a, um, a Word document or, well, no. Not Word. Other platforms are available. Just in a way that can be...
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604but word.
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601Oh, God, God, anything but what Scrivener is very good. I love Scrivener. but writing things down in the document where you can, you can chop and change things and move them backwards and forwards, and, you know, go back to a thought you had earlier and edit that. And that's, that's sort of how I work is by having a, just a big brain dump on the page or on the, on, on a Scrivener document. And, I'm putting everything down and then arranging it into a kind of order and then sort of fleshing out bits and pieces, moving things around, adding bits in, cutting bits out. And that, that sort of works with my, my mental process. Whereas when I'm drawing, cause I, I mean I don't know if you've seen my drawings, but they're very finickity. Um, clenched is a word that some might use. And I, I,
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604Do you? Oh, I wouldn't have said... I, find, when I look at your drawings, I'm tinged with a little bit of jealousy.
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601thanks. Don't be jealous. It's just clenching. It's just artistic clenching.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604Yeah, very talented for drawing of figures and then also the environments as well. I just, yeah, stand
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601It's very, it's very kind of you. But I, I'm not very good at editing and like that. thought process that I thought everyone, I thought everybody thought this way, but it turns out not, but that jumbled up thought process is not really, conducive to drawing the thoughts out so much.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604Hmm, that's interesting.
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601But, I mean, everyone I know, everyone works differently and, and, yeah.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604Yeah, I find it fascinating. whenever, as a comics creator on the podcast, I always ask about process. I just find it really, really interesting how different people
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've known people that, that write in, in blocks of prose and then cut it down into, into chunks and edit it into a comic. And I've known people that have written, that have drawn images as like their, like their key frames and an animation like the, the key images they see in their heads and then will fill in the bits in between. It's really interesting to see how people
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604yeah, it is really interesting. Marc Jackson, who's been on the podcast before, he was telling me that he kind of, he, the first thing he puts down is the, onto when he's like laying out the panel is the, The writing. And then he draws the images. Which is
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601Oh, interesting.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604like the complete opposite of how I Cause I normally draw I mean, obviously I'm not, I'm This is very amateur in my own hobbyish way, creating comics, but I always feel like I ruined it when I put the words
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601Oh, really? Oh, no. Do you, do you lay them on, on top with, um, with another, like, with Photoshop or something, or with another, with another,
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604Yeah, do it in Procreate or something like that, yeah. That I don't, it's because there's lack of planning, basically. There's this lack of planning, and it's like, I just thought of a nice picture, and then, and then I've got to ruin it by putting on the words.
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601You can always write them underneath like Rupert the Bear.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604yeah. yeah, good do,
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601just a thought.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604One of the things that's been coming out is, quite organically a theme of this season of, Comic Boom is, around comics creation and collaboration. and, but it seems like it's quite a solitary process for you. Is it? Or does your writing process include other people?
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601It does when I've got to the right stage. Because I've realised that there's a really dangerous stage early on where you have an idea that you're really excited about and you need someone to tell you, this is amazing, I'm really impressed with this idea. But it needs to be after you've done enough work. Otherwise... I say you, this is me. Otherwise, I will, I will be, uh, I'll just sit back and rest on my laurel and say, Well, I've entertained that person. That idea's done. Let's move on. But I, I can't really, um, I, I really like to work with other people. I, I don't do much, much collaborative working. It's nice to be able to, it's really nice to be able to share ideas with others. I love to be able to, during that, I love like a editorial input in, in the writing stage. Cause this. I feel like you write and there are things that you write and you think there's something wrong with it and I dunno what it is. And a good editor will say, this is what's wrong with it. And you'll know once they've said it, it's say, of course, of course. That was what was wrong all along. Or, um, or things that you didn't, things that you wouldn't have even thought of that are wildly wrong. that means correcting. I mean, I love that. I love that in the creative process. I don't do huge amounts of writing for other people, but I am planning to in the near future have a thing that I'm kicking around that I will not be drawing because it's not my style. My style is too clenched for starters. Too clenched for that.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604I like the idea of clenched being a drawing style.
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601I'm gonna film myself drawing and see if I have a facial expression to go with that as well. I bet I do.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604You've hinted there? But are you working on at the moment? Have you got a current project? Are there things in the pipeline? What what lies in the
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601Well, there's a thing, uh, the thing that I will hopefully be asking someone to, to draw, but I can't discuss that because if I, if I tell it to you now and you say, oh, that's good, then I'll, then I'll take, I'll tick the box that I've, I've entertained a person with it and it will shut down. Um, yeah, yeah, that's, that's for the hopefully not too distant future. Um, I think the main thing I'm doing at the moment is... Basically a lot of campaigning is what I'm doing at the moment, which is not work, it's work adjacent. I'm part of the, uh, Comics Cultural Impact Collective, and there's, seven of us, we've only been going for a few months, and we're all connected to comics, working in comics, some of us make comics, some of us work around comics, and we basically raise awareness and increase support for comics as a medium and people creating comics because there's, there's not a huge amount out there. I mean all of us in our different ways have worked alongside and around and with people in, in various areas of the arts and, uh, other kinds of engagement around science and bits and bobs and there's, there's money, there's funding out there, there's support out there, but none of it is for comics. so we're trying to, uh, we're trying to address that, our first, step one, first step is to gather all of the stats and the data and the proof that we can that comics are a very important art form and have a wide readership and are very accessible and are very appealing and are very useful and very good for, Retaining information and sharing information. Because we've realised that nobody will do anything unless there's proof, there's solid proof that something is good and worthwhile. So, this is phase one, and then, alongside this, we are approaching different organisations and groups who fund, cultural activities Like, for example, The Arts Council of England. That's the first group that we've... The first and, uh, the, I mean, the easiest target to, to approach to say, Hey, comics, what about comics? because we've done a few, freedom of information requests, and we've realised how dramatically underfunded comics are compared to other areas of the arts. And, comics is a very accessible art form. It's a very appealing art form. It's an art form that anybody can enjoy. You know, all you need to do is pick up a pen and, and take a photo and put it online and you are, not sorry, not, not a photo of you picking up a pen. I should clarify, take a, pick up a pen, draw a comic and then take a photo and put it online and you are, you know, you're a self published comics creator. it's very accessible to get into, but also it's very accessible to, to read and engage with as, as somebody, you know, as a reader, so we worked out that, so not to opera bash, because opera gets a lot of stick, however, it is a nice big juicy target. So we worked out recently, with a caveat, this is, according to, our very quickly sourced data. So it's not, it's not super robust, but we did work out that, 3. 8 percent of adults, engage with opera where it's around a third of adults engaging with, comics. That wasn't our data, but the amount that's spent on national portfolio organizations by arts council, England. on opera, it equates to about, I think it's about 16 per head, you know, for the people who are engaged as an audience, and for comics it was about 9p, so, um,
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604That's quite
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601it's quite striking, isn't it? There's a bit of a disparity there. Anyway, so that's been our, campaign, and we've, had an article recently in the bookseller, and that, that, I think that went down quite well.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604Yeah, it was really, I mean, it was, it was great. Eye catching, very beautiful. And just really jam packed with statistics.
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601meaty statistics.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604Very, very thought provoking. What's been the kind of reception of that?
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601We've had a lot of interest since then. We have a website the comics, cultural impact, collective. org. It's not snappy, but it's there. And, we have an email address that people can contact us on and a mailing list that people can subscribe to. And, and from the responses to those and, some bits and pieces on social media, it seems to have really caught a few people's attention. in the publishing industry, in the book industry, and that's, that's really what we wanted, because I think that. The problem is that there's a, there's just a, a vast gap between people who are interested in reading comics and people who are interested in producing comics. It's, it's, I know they're very, very expensive to make and I know the economies of scale are not there for publishing comics and it's, it's, you know, they take a long time and the level of work involved and the cost of production is very high. But the audience could potentially be there it is technically there. It just needs to be worked on and fed. I mean, at the moment the audience is being largely fed by manga, which is, you know, stepping into the breach. Especially with younger readers. It's a huge boom.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604Yeah. So interesting. And so at the moment you're just raising awareness? Is there kind of an end goal? Is there a deadline that you want to achieve it by?
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601We don't have a deadline as such. We do have, in the new year, and all the details will be on the website, but in the new year we're hoping to have, uh, kind of a roundtable discussion with everyone. Who is, involved with comics, either making comics or is involved with comics in their, in their organizations. Anybody who really shares our, kind of, ideals around comics to try to discuss our next steps as a community and work out where we go. And to You know, try and maybe recruit people and organisations to form, sort of, action groups to tackle because there's so many different areas that comics is, is falling down in, or is being let down in. So at this roundtable as well, we'd like to form some, some kind of, task forces, action groups, people with a certain set of skills, like, like Liam Neeson, who can go out and solve, or help tackle some of the different issues around comics. So, you know, whether it be in comics and education, or comics and academia, or children's publishing, or, you know, all these different areas where there's shortfalls that people can step into. So that will be happening in January. and ultimately our main goal is to try to form, an organization that can support comics creators, a non profit organisation that can, that can step in. We've realised as well from looking at different levels of funding in Arts Council, you can apply for funding, the way it works at the moment is you can apply for funding below 30, 000 or above 30, 000 or as a National Portfolio Organisation. Well there's only one Comics National Portfolio Organisation which is LICAF well done LICAF, good work, good work,
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604that the only one? I
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601That's the only one in comics, which is, pretty sad, to be honest. And, I think in the last year, there were no applications above 30, 000, which, to us, it suggests that it's only individuals applying for their own specific work. It's not organisations who are applying, for larger projects. And I think the reason for that is there's not a lot of comics organisations that are out there that can apply for funding. It's not that they're not
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604got that kind of structure. it's quite a lot of, it's a huge network to make one of those really big applications
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601yeah. It takes a huge amount of time and effort. Yeah, and it's something that is not, is not, feasible for a lot of organizations in comics because there's not, because they're, by and large, quite small. They don't have a dedicated person to, to, to focus on that kind of application, which means that there's no, there's no organizations to kind of cascade down that funding, that Arts Council funding to individual creators. So, it's, it's a weird kind of a bootstrap situation where you can't, you can't apply for funding because you're not in a position to apply for funding because you don't have the money. So it's sort of a, an annoying circular, a vicious, an annoying vicious circle. Circular, vicious, annoying circle. Something along those
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604it is.
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601I did a survey in 2020 to find out more about comics creators, and I, I asked people to specify where they were in their career, so it was people who were doing it, professionally, people who were kind of newcomers and people who were doing it as sort of as like dabbling, I guess is the phrase. And there was some umming and ahhing over whether I should be including people who are doing it as a hobby or dabbling on the side. And I, I honestly believe, of course we should, because if the industry was there, then these people would be working in comics, but it's not there. So I wholeheartedly believe that even people who are, especially people who are doing it in their own free time, are classed officially as comics creators. There was, the other thing that came out of that survey that was really shocking to me was that one in, one in ten of the people who say that they, that comics is their main career are only able to do it in their spare time, around. You know, other, other, other day, day jobs or caring things or, other responsibilities. So yeah, I find that really, I found that really striking and annoying, if I'm honest, shouldn't, it shouldn't be that way. don't see, uh, I don't know, Ian McEwan doing it in his spare time around, around his job at Morrison's. I don't, I don't know why I picked on Ian McEwan there, but yeah, Ian. No offence to Ian McEwan, I'm sure he's fine.
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604I think it'll be really interesting, actually, to hear about how you became Comics Laureate,
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601Oh, you know, I greased the right palms, you know,
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604Wow, that's what I'd heard.
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601Gotta know the right people, Lucy. I
lucy-sb_1_09-22-2023_133604and I guess, how, I'm interested in its kind of impact. Do you think, is that how you became sort of so passionate in this kind of campaigning element? And how, if it sort of changed the trajectory of your career, you think, doing
hannah_1_09-22-2023_133601think it definitely lit a rocket under me.
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253I couldn't tell you how I was chosen because I was not, I was not party to that decision. I'm assuming there were lottery balls and straws drawn and things, things like that. I'm not, I'm not entirely sure how it happened. I'm the third laureate and the first two laureates were, the very esteemed Charlie Adelard and Dave Gibbons.
Yeah because you were the first female comics laureate, of course Why do you think you were selected
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253I think you, you don't have to get through too many very established female comics creators. before you reach me because there's not, there's not loads of us due to, you know, due to the, the entrenched issues in working in comics over, I mean it's very, it's very different now, thankfully it's changing, but it's not an easy career to have if you have a child then it could be trickier for female creators also, but it has been a bit of a boys club in past time. I'm sorry to say that guys, but it kind of happened.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254for sure. I've just been doing some stats on the podcast episode so far. 66 percent women contributors.
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253Well done, well done. good. That's the way it should be.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254we're doing.
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253When I, when I did that survey,, I don't think we put this in the final thing, but at some point we did work out just for our own, out of our own interest. the gender balance before the sort of the resurgence of the early, early noughts and after, and after it's much more evenly split and before it's very, very heavily male skewed. Anyway, so that's, all this to say, I kind of see it as a responsibility to be visible to let other upcoming female creators know that you can, reach the dizzying heights of Laureate. You too can be Laureate!
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254And, can you explain a little bit about what the Laureate role is? What does it mean? It's an unpaid role, is that right? I saw that recently. I was like, Oh no money in it?
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253well, I think it depends on the laureate, I'm not sure if this is too much, you know, how the sausage is made. I, had a stipend because, because I, I need it to work on comic laureate
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254Yeah, yeah, yeah.
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253I don't have any, uh, any long running franchises to pay my bills. So, yeah, it's, I think it, I don't know if it's always paid or unpaid. I think maybe
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254It changes depending on the,
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253who is in post. so the role itself was created to help promote the use of comics as a tool for literacy, to help get people into reading from all walks of life, and also as an ambassadorial role for comics. And it's very open actually, we're sort of allowed to choose which direction we head in. I know that Charlie was very focused on, dyslexia, because I think his son is dyslexic, and found Comics was a very useful tool, so he was sort of promoting it in that area. And from my previous life, I used to do admin for the probation service. And, I was, I became very aware that, that the, the reading age of offenders in, prison is like shockingly low, like tiny, tiny, really awful. And so, I wanted to try and use comics to, to help, you know, as a tool for, for reading, for literacy amongst offenders. And then also for people learning English as a foreign language. again, these are both sort of areas that are quite underserved, I think, in, you know, culturally speaking. And we would have got away with it too if it hadn't been for that pesky COVID that came along. We had some, we had some grand plans, in 2019, and then unfortunately all those plans in 2020, everything sort of stopped well, I mean, you know, maybe you could pick it up again. It could be picked up again in the future at some point,
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254And I've seen you talk at the National Literacy Trust, teacher's conference, and you were calling comics, Literacy, Swiss Army Knife. Could you unpack that a little bit about what you mean by that and what you think the potential is for comics in terms of boosting literacy and engagement?
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253it's very stabby.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254LAUGHS
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253stabby comics are. No,
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254Or are they the tiny corkscrew?
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253Yes! Stabby to different effective levels. no, it was, I think when people think of comics quite often, the most obvious thing people think of is the superhero comics, because they're the most visible. And so, I think people don't really equate comics with subtlety. I think that is often missed. And comics are so subtle, because every single Well, they can be very subtle, because every single element of a comic, every part of a panel, every piece that is sort of placed together, the elements that are used, the way they're juxtaposed with each other, you know, the different colours, the different language used, the sort of the placing of things in a scene, you know, the blocking, I guess that would be called all these different elements, and, you know, the pacing of the thing, and the shape of the panels, and the layout, everything contributes to a greater meaning, I feel like, comics is quite often, compared with prose books, wrongly, because I think they're a lot closer to poetry, because there are fewer elements very carefully chosen, and the way that you... Choose these elements and the way that you use them changes the meaning so, so wildly. I mean, you can, the comics are used, they used sort of journalistically, they're used to portray, personal events. They're used to portray silence and, and, you know, internal, internal meaning they're used to portray superheroes, punching each other. I mean, there's, there's so much possibility with them.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254I was going to say that I think the comic artist Seth said that some, I'm paraphrasing, but that comics were more, more poetry and, and graphic design than art and writing. I think those are the two things he was comparing, that they're closer to poetry and graphic design, which I think is quite cool. And I think, well, I think it also really relates to his work specifically.
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253Yeah. Lots of silence. Yeah, I think, I think it's a very true point. And if Seth said it, we'll, we'll, who are we to argue?
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254Yeah, bow down. At the end of the podcast, I asked guests to wrap up what they've been saying, maybe provide a few takeouts for educators, librarians, and other comics creators maybe who are listening. Can you maybe draw some threads together? It could be things that you haven't said yet, some additional points or, or some sort of summaries that kind of sum up your perspectives on comics and education.
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253Sure, I think comics are, comics are fantastic when they're used as, a tool for self expression. And I know that comics are great for, they're a great tool for literacy. They're great for, they're great to read other people's, you know, thoughts and ideas. But they're also fantastic for getting your own ideas out there. And to, to really express yourself. I think, because of the subtle thing, because of the silence, and because of the, you know, the control over every single element, it can, it can feel very personal, and you can, I think There's an implicit invitation to be sincere with comics, and I think especially maybe older kids who are, you know, coming to terms with their identities and things and working out who they are, I think it can be quite, it could be quite a useful tool to encourage them to, to use comics to express their own views on things.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254I think that's a really good point. I've been thinking about the potential of there being a space within comics to support children, young people, to communicate their experience of education, their experience of their daily lives, and that that could be a really useful tool to support. Developing a greater understanding of where they're coming from, you know, children, we've got issues, I'm thinking of it almost in a kind of, a graphic medicine, but in a kind of special educational needs setting. I just think in terms of a different way of the children being able to communicate their perspectives. I just, I think it would be really interesting thing to explore.
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253yeah, actually, and you know, I hadn't, I hadn't really made this connection before, but there's something, there's, there are definitely a lot of creators who are neurodivergent.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254Mm.
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253Um, as I am myself, as it turns out. And I think there are real concerns with self expression, with making yourself understood in the way that you want to be understood. And I think comics, because you have, again, as I say, you have that control over all these different elements, I think it's not a, it's not a, coincidence that there are so many people working in comics who are autistic and have ADHD and are, you know, are neurodivergent. I think... I think it's an ideal way to, reach out and, and make yourself understood in, on your own terms.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254Yeah, I completely agree. I really want to delve into it. I quite often have moments where I'm like, Oh, I wish I was still in the classroom and I could actually, like, tomorrow go and see what would happen I get a teaching itch.
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253you, is, what's stopping you from just walking into a classroom tomorrow? Oh, sorry.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254Quite a lot.
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253legally legally there are issues.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254But yes, it will be an interesting project I'd like to, like to investigate at some point. I'm interested to hear what your recommendation will be for us. The final thing of the podcast is for the guests to recommend a book for our To Be Read piles. If only one title, it could be a comic or a book about comics, or actually some people just choose a different type of book. But what would you recommend?
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253This is, this is a tough one. I mean, I have, can I, can I recommend two?
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254I did say I was having a crackdown this series because some people just go, just flout the rules but I will allow you, seeing as you're a former comics laureate, I'll allow you to have two.
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253Okay, feel free to, I'll say two and then you can edit one out.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254I'll just bleep over it so people can't hear.
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253Yeah. My other recommendation is, BEEEEP I most recently just devoured Ducks by Kate Beaton. I really, really enjoyed that. I mean, I like her work anyway. I find her work very funny. And her dialogue is, is chef's kiss. But I have to say chef's kiss because it's, you know, podcast form. Otherwise I would actually, you know, mime it.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254you usually just go around saying the word chef's kiss?
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253I'm one of those people that says hashtag before actual words in real life. No, I'm not. I would never. I don't do that. Do I? Do I, actually? God, I hope I don't do that.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254Hashtag comics!
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253anyway, sorry, I really enjoyed it. It was very, it was so compelling in a way that I was not expecting it to be. It's her, it's a, it's an autobiographical story of her time working in the tar sands in Canada. And it's just a really good... sort of look at the, the people who are working there and where they are in their lives and, you know, misogyny and environmental issues and, migration and it, it's really fascinating. so that was, that's number one. And then number two, I'm going to choose, so this isn't, this doesn't have to be for kids, does it? I'm
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254Yeah. It's just to enrich our own reading for pleasure.
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253to Okay, I'm going to, my second one is, Blackwood by Hannah Eaton. Which it's sort of a, a, a very dark folk horror, from a couple of years ago. And it's all about, this, this kind of, this fictional town with, some goings on. And it's very, I mean, it's, it's sort of an intergenerational, it's all about intergenerational trauma as sort of looks at this, kind of the way that people relate to each other and, you know, the kind of the, the, the traumas that are passed on and, You know, manifest themselves in, in, in different family members, but yeah, it's a really, it's, it's a really good book. It's really gripping and, um, quite surprisingly funny as well. And it's, it's like, it's all done in really lovely, lovely pencil work, which is a very nice as well. I like a bit of pencil in a comic.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254That sounds very good. I've not heard of the second one. The first one has been on my radar for a while. I really like the cover of it and it definitely appeals to me. Yeah, they sound brilliant. So thank you very much for those recommendations. That's it.
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253Yeah.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_09-29-2023_130254the end of the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, don't celebrate that much. But yes, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. You've Been a brilliant guest.
hannah_1_09-29-2023_130253You are very welcome.
There you have it. Thank you so much, Hannah for coming. On to the show loads of brilliant takeouts, I think from that episode and just. Really great to hear you talk about your process and how you became a comics creator, a little bit of serendipity. a lot of talent going into that journey. I have actually dug that out, my vague reference to a quote. Quote from Seth about poetry. and graphic novels. And I will read that quote to you because I think it. Really interesting. So this is from a 2018 interview. With Nick Sousanis. Who's been mentioned on the podcast before interviewing Seth. the interview is called poetry design and comics and interview with Seth and it's from carousel 19. Spring summer 2006. If you want to find it to here is what the interview says the words and pictures that make up comics. Language often described as prose and illustration combined bad metaphor. Poetry and graphic design seems more apt poetry for the rhythm and condensing graphic design, because cartooning is more about moving shapes around. Designing than it is about drawing. Obviously when creating a strip about a man walking down the street, you are drawing pictures of the man and the environment. However, you're also trying to simplify these drawings down into a series of more iconic graphic renderings. I think that's just really interesting. I really love that quote to something that I include in presentations when I'm working with teachers just to try and prompt. Thinking and reflecting about comics and graphic novels in a different way. I think it's just an interesting perspective to look at things from. If you haven't explored the work of Seth. Then I would definitely recommend you go and check out some of his. Again, very graphic, graphic novels, graphic in the kind of visual sense of shape and line. Not graphic in terms of the content. so yeah, check those out. Very, very interesting. you can definitely see why he is such a famous and well-known comics, That's it for me, this is in fact free. Sadly, the end of season three. but it's been a great season, very conscious that it's been quite heavy on comics, creators, and really tried for next season with the plans to get that mixed back where we've got more librarians, educators, academics. I've got some really interesting academics to come and speak on. Next series would love to have some more. Librarians and educators. So if you're sitting there thinking I could talk about my collections in my school, I could talk about how the comics club I run or how I, engage children and young people to read comics in the library space or in the classroom. Then I would absolutely love to hear from you. Do you get in touch? There's always in the show notes, an email address. for The podcast, you can also contact me on Twitter at Lucy underscore Bradley that's B R a I D L E Y. I have got COVID at the moment. So sorry. I'm a little bit croaky. but yeah, get in contact. I would love to hear from you You can also contact me via Instagram. If you've heard the podcast page, then at comic underscore boom underscore podcast. And I'd love to hear from you that way as well. I love to get messages, people talking about things that are going on. A bit discussed on the podcast. I'd love to hear your opinions. So please get in touch. That was what it's all about. The purpose of having the podcast for me is really about building that community around people who are interested in the same things. As me and the education in comics, I'm in all of those things. So really love to hear from you. do you think, I need to say just as we're wrapping up for the season is a big, thank you to all of the guests. I have been really, really thrilled with some of the themes that have come out of this podcast season. Thinking about the environment, the role of comics to. Stimulate debate around climate change, thinking around collaboration, collaboration between writers, collaborations. And organizations collaboration between children. We were writing comics. That's been a really interesting and fascinating theme for me. And one that I think I'm definitely now going to notice and pick up on every time it comes up because, I think that's a fascinating aspect of comics that I hadn't been as aware of before. So that's been a great learning curve for me also found out this season about so many great books that have just, you know, just hitting our shelves things like Pedro Martin's Mexikid things like Drawn to change the world. That's been absolutely brilliant. To have those creators coming. Straight when they're just being. Releasing things that work great to have Jess Bradley and Mo O'Hara on have Beth and Jess from the inflatable series on as well. So thank you each and every guest who has been on your contributions have been brilliant and really. Continue to develop my thinking about comics, how they're made what their role is in education and how we can learn from the way that they're made. And put that into some of our writing practice in the classroom and in library as well. If you would like to support the podcast, you can do that and you can do that via sharing with your colleagues. With your friends who might be interested by leaving a five-star review by re tweeting an episode that you've particularly enjoyed. And by, following on our social media platforms, as I have already said. So thank you so much for your support has been a great number of listeners. This, this season, really looking forward to coming back in the new year with a, an exciting and varied lineup for you. My name is Lucy Starbuck Braidley on the producer and host Of comic. Boom. Thanks for listening.
