Comic Boom - Comics in Education
An education podcast exploring the use of comics in education. Each episode I’ll be joined by a special guest from a wide range of backgrounds, from passionate education professionals to academics and industry experts. I'll be exploring a wide range of perspectives in the search for information and inspiration. Listen in if you’d like to grow your understanding of the theory behind comics, discover the most effective approaches to using comics and graphic novels in your classroom and gain inspiration from passionate comics creators.
This season of Comic Boom is sponsored by ALCS, The Authors' Licensing and Collecting Society! Find out more about their work at www.alcs.co.uk
Comic Boom - Comics in Education
Comic Boom - Comics in Education - with artist and writer Ryan Estrada
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Lucy chats to comic writer and artist Ryan Estrada.
Ryan Estrada is an artist, author, and adventurer. His books include Banned Book Club, Occulted, and the Student Ambassador series. He has worked for Star Trek, Popeye, Flash Gordon, and Garfield.
You can find Ryan on Twitter/X: @ryanestrada
And on Instagram: @ryanestradadotcom
Links to everything discussed in this episode can be found on the podcast padlet.
You can SUPPORT the podcast by buying a comic or buying me a comic at: https://ko-fi.com/lucysb
Producer and Host: @Lucy_Braidley
Contact: comicboompodcast@gmail.com
Hello, and welcome to comic boom, the comics and education podcast. If you're interested in hearing more about the crossover between comics and education. Then this is the podcast for you. My name is Lucy Starbuck Braidley. And each week I'll be joined by a fellow educator and academic a librarian or a creator of comics to discuss their journey into comics. And provide some inspiration to influence your practice and hopefully as well. Well shine, some light on some. All of the titles that you can bring into your classrooms. To your libraries and also onto your. Bookshelves at home. This week, I'm joined by Ryan estrada. Ryan as an artist, an author and his books include banned book club, Occulted, and the student ambassador series. We talk a lot about. Banned book club in today's episode, and also touch a little bit on Occulted, which is his most recent title at the point when I interviewed him. I absolutely loved band book club really great read so recommend that one As well as that he's worked on star trek popeye flash gordon and garfield and he also holds the world record for consecutive comic making after attempting and surpassing The 168 hour comic record So one page per hour for a full week I Had really interested in chat with ryan who's really experienced in running workshops for schools on comics and also as being an english as foreign language teacher himself loads of really interesting insights i think you'll enjoy this one here's what ryan had to say
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Hello Ryan, welcome to Comic Boom.
Track 1Hello, thanks for having me.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606You are very welcome. To start us off, can you tell me a little bit about your journey as a comics reader? First of all, do you remember the first comic you ever read? How did it all start for you?
Track 1Well, I mean, I was reading, and making comics, like, before I have memories. Like, my mom says that, like, as soon as I was born, I'm like, it's time to start learning to be a professional cartoonist.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Ha
Track 1to go pro when I was six. Like, that's when I started, sending out submission packets to newspapers and syndicates. So, I think, you know, what I was reading early on, was newspaper comics. That's what was, you know, delivered to my house every day. So I was reading a lot of, you know, Garfield and Peanuts and, and even all the, the terrible ones. I was reading the, the, the Andy Capps, which Joe, or, you know, jokes that I wasn't quite getting but I was still reading it.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606And where do you think that confidence came from that you, so early on, were, you know, brave enough to just send your work off to newspapers? That's not something that every six year old would do, so where do you think that that came from?
Track 1Yeah, I have no idea where it came from initially, because like I said, it's, I was a baby, so I don't even remember ever having a choice in the matter. It's just what I've always known I was gonna do. But I think why it continued is because, as a six year old, I went to my family and said, I'm gonna become a professional cartoonist, helped me put together a syndicate, packet. And at no point did anyone involved say, kid, you're six. You can't, you can't get a job at a syndicate. And so everyone's like, that's great. Let me help you. And the newspaper is very kind. They sent letters back and told me to keep my work on file. So I'm like, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm in
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606I love it.
Track 1in the professional realm now. So I just kind of, encouragement, uh, never led me to believe that it wasn't an option.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606And so at that early stage, you were, were you doing your illustrations as well as writing? Because you're more known for the writing side now, or were you very much involved in the kind of art side then as well?
Track 1Oh yeah, I do both illustration and writing of comics. A lot of the comics that I have in bookstores now. I don't illustrate, because that with the stories that I'm telling that my style doesn't really fit.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Mm, mm.
Track 1With banned book club, it was a very Korean story about Korean history. So I thought it was important to have a, Korean illustrator. And then also with, occulted originally I was going to draw occulted. And then at one point. Our editor said, Hey, you're writing a book about a traumatic experience. Can you make everyone less, look less like a goofy dork? And I'm like, no, I genuinely cannot. I've tried, that's how I draw. So we got
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606That's my style.
Track 1to do that. But, but yeah, I, I do illustrate. I just haven't illustrated a lot of the, the recent books that have come out. But I'm illustrating one right now.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Oh, brilliant. Can you tell us a little bit more about that one before we... I want to loop back to some of your early reading habits, but I'd love to... As we're talking about it, what are you working on now?
Track 1Uh, right now I'm in the middle of inking a book called No Rules Tonight. That's another book with my wife, Kim Hyun Sook, the co author of Banned Book Club. And it's more, based on her experiences, and, like I said, the first book, since it was about Korean history, we wanted a Korean artist to draw it, but this one, since it's a more personal story, she thought it'd be better if, if I drew it with her in the room, and we can kind of collaborate on making it more personal to her experiences.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Amazing. I definitely want to talk a lot about Band Book Club. I loved reading it. I thought it was just a really incredible story. so, I've just discovered that you're married, that's very exciting to me. Was that something that you decided to write on together after you were already in a relationship? Or was this relationship been bloomed from this co writing? Also I think that often times people we know have really interesting stories to tell, but doesn't actually always manifest itself into a finished work, so, how did that come about?
Track 1Yeah, well, it, it's, the whole story of Banned Book Club is something I had no idea about until I'd known... Hyunsook for like well over a decade and We were already married been married for years And we're we were walking up a mountain one day and she was talking about some friends she had met the week before and Said that something reminded her of when she was hunted down by the KCIA for reading banned books And I'm like wait when you what? And she just like guys no big deal. I just I helped smuggle books around the country and stuff whatever and So like that's all I found out at that point And I tweeted about it, like, you guys would not believe what I learned about my wife, and we were offered a book deal based on that tweet. And so, uh, so, I went to her and I'm like, do you think there's enough story there to make a whole book? And she's like, no, not really, we just read books. and then every follow up question I asked her, I'm like, Wait, what? Uh, so it just kind of built out from there. And now we're working on, we got a whole book and we're working on two sequels. So, you know, people, a lot of people in our lives will have amazing stories, but they don't realize how amazing their stories are. 'cause, you know, it's their life. So they, to them it's just normal. they don't think that there's anything surprising about it. And that's, and that's kind of like, same thing happened with Occulted where, my friend Amy Rose told me she grew up in a U F O death cult and used band books to escape. So, In both of these situations, like, apparently every woman in my life just like has a secret story about, banned books saving their life. So I, I'm, I'm here to help them make them into comics.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606yeah, that's, that's absolutely fascinating and in terms of the process of writing, especially if you have got, you know, your own visual style and you are confident when communicating in images, when you're writing, is it really are you imagining the visuals as well? To what extent do you lead, lead that as a comics writer?
Track 1You know, every time I work with another illustrator, like when I'm writing from something for myself to draw, like it's all in my head and I'm writing down what I see. I'm visualizing on the page, but when I'm working with someone else. We have a conversation at the start of the project. And before I ever write a script or send them a script, I ask them what, what kind of style they prefer. Like, with, Go Hyung Joo who illustrated banned Book Club, He, you know, English is a second language, so he really wanted to be clear on what he was supposed to be drawing in each panel, how many panels were in the page, what expressions people are making. Whereas, uh, on a book series I do called Student Ambassador with with an artist named Axer Ennius, Axer Has these instincts of like visual comedy that When I talk to him, he's like, yeah, just tell me what happens on the page and I'll work out all the details I'll work out how many panels I'll work out how to how to make how to sell the joke and it works really well So it's it really depends on who you're working with if you're if you're illustrating if you're not illustrating what that person's doing Preferred style is and either way is works great because I I love being able to say this should happen This should happen But also when you work with someone that wants to take the reins and make it something you wouldn't expect can make it even better
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606that's really interesting. And so is there, I imagine a process of To and fro draft and redraft and how involved are you in that as well as editors? Is it a kind of a combination of all three or four parties sometimes because you've got co writers as well.
Track 1Yeah, well, I mean usually like with a the co author like when I'm working with Hyunsouk We'll do the whole script long before, we expect an, an illustrator to, get involved. And then we have a publisher who's giving feedback. And, like, with Banned Book Club, since it's Hyunsook's true story, basically the way that worked was, Hyunsook and I would sit down and she would tell me the story and I'd ask her questions. And then we'd figure out what questions I had that she couldn't answer. And she traveled all across Korea and, like, reunited with her old banned book club members
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606yeah
Track 1And I would be at the computer, um, And I would Turning it into a story and then she would read it and give me feedback and then that was interesting because You know Hyunsuk is not a writer. She's never been interested in it She's never been interested in comics, but you know just because we made this book together She kind of learned what I do and then she was actually hired to translate her own book For the Korean release and so then we got to switch places and she got to be the one at the keyboard asking me questions about why did you write this this way why is this phrase this way and then like realizing oh you wrote that because it's a pun that's dumb I'm gonna rewrite this for this version and so like seeing her learn what I do and now you know now she's gone from never having it had any interest to like now she's a she's an award winning best selling author uh has been really interesting to watch you
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606and there does seem to be, and you, you joked earlier that, about, you know, having, women in your life with these stories, but there does seem to be a really strong theme of activism and fighting for change across comics in general, I find. I think it is, as a, as a form, it's something which lend, it seems to lend itself, people will have those kind of stories of kind of resistance that they want to tell through comics, maybe because it sits kind of... on the outside, a little bit of the kind of the canon or accepted literature, and so it's used in those ways. what do you think? Do you think that comics is a form that is able to tackle these topics more than other forms? I'm interested to know what your thoughts are on that.
Track 1Well, I mean, for me, like, anything you write, the goal is to make it about changing the world. Whether it's about changing the world in political ways or, you know, just trying to have an impact on the world. Like, that's what any story is about, and that's what I've kind of always tried to write about. The more political aspects of that, uh, just came from stumbling into the story and being able to work with my wife to tell this true experience. And now I kind of like feel this responsibility of, you know, all these people came together to share their story with me, to keep that going. And, you know, Tell other stories, on the same themes. And I think comics, for me, the reason I like telling a story like that in comics is because You know, we tried to make Banned Book Club not feel like a book about politics. It's not a book about history. We tried to just make it feel like a hangout manga, like a comic about kids hanging out, and kids going to school, and having dates, and trying to make friends, and the political aspects of it are what are interrupting that story. These kids are just trying to live their lives, and this historical... Situation is intruding on that and so I I think that's that can kind of make that history come alive For the kids reading it, because it's not like I'm, we're sitting down trying to teach them about it. We're saying like, like, you know, just like kids today. You know, there's a lot of things happening in the world, but it's not like you're, you, you aren't the main character of a dystopian novel. You're trying to live your life. And by just having a, a book that, when you look at it, when you pick it up, it, it feels like, a story about friends, it can make all of the history in it feel more powerful because it shows how it impacts their lives.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Yeah, that's really true, yes. I was just thinking, so one of the things, one of the quotes that I picked up I, just resonated with me in Banned Book Club was, at times like this, no act is apolitical. And I love that line. and I just wondered, I've been thinking recently around, The extent to which reading itself can be, just in our everyday lives, reading can be an act of, an act of resistance, um, and writing as well. And do you think that's true of your work? That, I mean, whether it's by either acknowledging the sort of state of the world or by not acknowledging it, we're always saying something about what's happening.
Track 1Yeah, I mean, whatever you put into or not put into a work is saying something about the way you view the world, even if you're, if you're actively trying to put no political message into work, that is a very strong political message
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Yeah, exactly, yeah.
Track 1you know, the topic of our book, and then also the fact that our book was banned in Florida recently, I've learned so much about, Like the way people that ban books look at them and just to see the very simple things that, that other people that are not intended at all by the author to be political, but are taken as political attacks by, book banners, like, what, even if you don't think there's anything in it, there are people that are going to look at something you wrote, and have strong opinions about it and like you were talking about, reading being an act, like, you know, that's what fascinates me about these stories is that, you know, Hyunsook did not know she grew up under a dictator until she read a book about it. Amy did not know she was growing up in a UFO death cult until she read a book about it. And so, like, having researched and talked to the people that lived these stories and realizing how books literally saved their lives using Occulted as an example, like a cult. It was really not easy for Amy, my friend, Amy, who I co-wrote the book with and who it's about, it was not easy for her to write because she had to like really relive. These horrifying experiences, but she knew that books were what saved her life and that this book could, save someone else's, like someone could look at this book, even though, you know, it's, it's just her story. We tried to make it funny. We tried. Same thing. We tried to make it about someone trying to live their life and these things are intruding, but even if someone reads it and isn't in a situation like that now, we're hoping that like, it kind of puts the idea in someone's head that this is what it's like to be manipulated, this is what it's like to be lied to, and maybe like 20 years from now someone's gonna be in a relationship or someone's gonna be in a group and some red flags are gonna pop up and they're not even gonna know where it came from, but they're gonna be like, hey, wait a minute, this seems really manipulative and we hope that you know, that might change the world just from putting a thought in someone's head.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Yeah. And I think it's really interesting that comics and graphic novels are more likely to be banned than any other type of literature. I know there's a lot of tracking of that going on as well. Have you got any thoughts on why that might be?
Track 1Well, I mean, one of the main things, of course, is people assume comics are for kids. So if anything challenges you as a comic, it's like, why are you showing this to kids? But the other main reason is that, comics are very easy to pop a panel out of context and show it to people and say, look how scary it is. that's, there's a reason why,
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Or explicit or whatever.
Track 1Yeah, like, it's, it's, it's very easy, if you go on the internet and say anything about banned books, someone's going to jump in and, post the exact same screenshot of one of two books that, are like very excellent, uh, sex education books for older teens and say, this is what they're showing the children. You know, those are the only two screenshots they have because they love showing them off because you know Whereas you could put the exact same scene in a prose book But you'd have to read the whole page and use your imagination to see it and the people that are getting angry are not big on reading and don't have imaginations.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Yeah, they're not investing that much time.
Track 1yeah, And even if they do, it's, it's difficult to rile other people up cause they gotta like post this, like two pages and be like, read this and you'll see it's really saucy. But you pop a panel on there and be like, this one panel, this character says this, even if the next panel, they talk about the dangers of that situation or something, and you can cause a panic.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606yeah, yeah, it's so true. Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it from that, it's just really easy to disseminate, isn't it, and to whip up, that kind of controversy when you've got something, a visual that's just really easy to share. I'm going to just loop back a little bit to the writing process and the process of working with co writers, who, you know, you're telling the, the life story of, how do you feel, you know, in comparison to when you write something that's complete work of fiction? How does, how, is there a different sense of responsibility?
Track 1Yeah, writing these, you know, true, important stories are like, I'm really touched to be able to do it, and I'm really honored to be able to do it, but every time I finish one, I'm like, I need to write a goofy book about a robot, cause, cause, uh, I can make, I can make a robot do anything that I want, and not have to worry that I'm gonna like, dredge up the robot's trauma, or, uh, or like, or like, uh, misrepresent their life, and so like, You know, like with band book club, we interviewed so many people that were like, told us these stories that like, you know, they didn't have to tell. Um, and so, yeah, it's a, it's a lot of responsibility, but it's, it's an interesting responsibility to be able to go through and, uh, and figure out how to tell that story in a way that. That works for everyone and then, being able to show that work to them. And, and one of the funniest things was, after the book was done, you know, all of the real band book club members read it and we went to dinner with them and I was really nervous about asking that because, you know, it came from their stories, but when you're Writing a story like you don't know the exact words that were used. You don't you know, you're you're kind of like creating conversations the case of band book club talking to a guy who like i'm creating conversations of his romance with my wife Which is an awkward situation
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Yeah. It's a better
Track 1And like, so I'm like writing about this guy's love life, I'm writing about his his situations with the police, and times he was, he was like kidnapped and tortured by the police and I'm really nervous but
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Mm.
Track 1him like, how, how did I do? How did, how, and you know. I'm nervous. And I kind of floated the question. He got the serious look on his face. I'm like, Oh no. And he's like, there are some things that were not accurate. And I'm like, Oh no, what was it? And he's like, in this panel, you drew this kind of tank, but that kind of tank didn't exist until 1985. And this takes place in 1983. I'm like, Oh, okay, that's it? Wow, okay, we're good, we're good then. Like, if, if that's your biggest complaint, is that the treads on the tank were too, were two years too early, then, whew.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606There was a quote. In the, in the back of the book, around, which I really liked about kind of the facts of history being chopped up like fish on the fishmongers. Slab ready to be made into something and I thought it was really interesting in terms of that balance between the real and the imagined and you've touched on it a bit there, but I'm really keen to kind of unpick that. How much were you able to fictionalize was it the minor details or were you able to build in kind of fictional relationships or was that all very much based on the interviews of people during your research?
Track 1It was, it was funny the, the process of it, cause like, the one, you know, what I realized is, like I said, people can tell you the story a million times, but you don't know the experience of being there, you don't, and even they don't remember the exact wordings of things, so even if you're writing, Word for word what they said it's going to become a fictionalization. I kind of realized that like every
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Yeah, that's so true.
Track 1is at some point fiction because you know, you're having to create words that someone said, and but you know, the goal is to try and make and make it as real to the heart of the situation as you can, and then show it to the real people and make sure it works. So, there was a lot more fictionalization because I didn't, you know, I'd had all these stories that didn't really fit together and I had to create this overarching story to make it, you know, work as a story, but then the more, like, You know, I'd finished a draft and there was a lot of stuff that I'd made up and then someone would tell me another story and I'd be like, oh, oh, oh, wow, okay, I can take out this part that I made up and like replace it with this real thing. And eventually it came to the point that like pretty much everything in that book is something that happened. It may it, you know, it happened over the course of four years. Within the book, we condensed it to one school year. to make it flow better as a story. So it may not have happened in that order. The same characters might not have been in the room. But we were able to make it, really feel like that's what happened. the only major changes were that we changed everyone's names, except for Hyunsook, of course. and we kind of combined. The characters so that no one was like one to one. So, you know, because even though people told us these stories I'm like are people gonna regret it. It's like, you know, the comic book comes out where they're like Confessing to even if they aren't crimes now, they're confessing to crimes and then we also changed the name of the the school in the city because we didn't want to create any drama there and Then after the book came out every single one of those people did their own press tour to say like I'm the real uni And then the, city and the school invited us out for a day where they, like, basically made it banned book club day and they, like, brought press from all over the country and, had photographers come and get, like, the mayor met us and the head of the university was there. And I'm like,, I whispered to my wife. I'm like, did, do they know that the government and the school were not the heroes of the story? then later, and then later, the mayor explains, like, I know that the, government wasn't the hero of the story, but I used to be a band in a band book club and now I'm the mayor. So we won.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606I love it. That's brilliant. I also really enjoyed the visual style of it. You said earlier that drawn in a very Korean style. it's not manga if it's Korean comics. Man wa What can you tell me? You live in Korea now? so what can you tell me about Korean comics? I don't know anything, and I'd really love to know more.
Track 1Well, I mean, I, I find it, it's really funny when people use manhua as a style, cause manhua just means comics in, uh,
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Mmm,
Track 1is manhua, but there is a lot of influence, you know, manhwa and manga grew up around the same time, so there are a lot of very similar, stylistic elements to it. But there's a lot of Korean manhwa that's completely different, like Dooley the Dinosaur is one of the most famous, that's like a very cartoony, uh, silly thing, but, it's, it, yeah, a lot of the Korean comics are more like the digest, very long series of digests. Like there's um, here instead of going to like a comic book store you go to a manhwa cafe, which is like you pay like a 50 cents per hour and they have like every volume of every Comic and you can just sit
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606I can just sit in there and read them. I wanna go.
Track 1Um, I
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606sounds like my happy place.
Track 1I I really want to go there's like 10 per block here, but I can't read Korean So I can't read any of them
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Hahaha
Track 1But but yeah I mean there's a there's a lot like that and even in some newspapers like some newspapers still have like four panel comic strips like we have Here, but some newspapers like their comic page is just they print 20 pages or 10 pages of Like manga style comic book on a page of newsprint and it's all on one page and you just read that and that's your comics for the day.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606And then the story continues from one newspaper to the next, to the next
Track 1Yep.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Brilliant. Is there any particular titles that you know have maybe been translated into English that might be a good starting point if people want to explore?
Track 1one of the most famous, cartoonists here that it doesn't draw in the like manga style. Uh, there's a guy named Gangpul who is famous for webcomics and, he has more movies based on his work in Korea than I think JK Rowling does. Because like almost every book he's done has been turned into a movie. So it's interesting to If you want to see, like, the, the adaptation process, it's interesting seeing, some of his comics are very, very simple art styles, and then seeing, seeing them evolve, that's, that's a nice little, series of books to look into.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Brilliant. And I'd like to loop back to talking. We kind of jumped in just how the conversation flowed, but I'd love to go back Earlier you said you started reading the newspaper, comic strips, where did you go from there? I Know sometimes people on the podcast, they sort of dipped in and out, different times in their life they read more than, than maybe, you know, secondary school they read less or so on. Was, has it always been a constant, in your life and what have been your, some of your, key titles that have really inspired you as a, as a reader and a creator I suppose?
Track 1You know, I was always into comics, and it was newspaper comics for a long time. I never got into superhero comics, and the main reason for that was just that, like, You know, every time I, I decided to buy a volume, I'd pick it up and it'd be like, Oh, we're starting. It's like expecting me to know what happened before and okay, but we're building up something. Let's see what happens at an end before it happens. And I'm like, wait, that wasn't, that was like random chunk of a story. So I, I always felt like. I always felt like there's no way I can get into this because, like, they expect you to have read a hundred issues
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Yeah, no, the whole
Track 1different comics to get it, so I never got into superhero comics, but from, uh, newspaper comics and then web comics, I started discovering graphic novels, and I absolutely fell in love with Bone by Jeff Smith, and, people like, you know, Raina Telgemeier, and And, uh, Kazu Kibuishi, lots of people doing amazing graphic novels. And then just discovering that. Now, a lot of people like bristle at the term graphic novel. All I mean by graphic novel is a standalone book. That's about the length of a novel. that's not a that's not a judgment of quality. It's just like. You can pick it up and read it in the time it takes you to read a novel. so yeah, like that, because I, when I pick up something, whether it's a movie or a book, like, I want to have a story with a beginning, middle, and an end. So that's kind of what I, what I read
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Yeah, that sort of satisfaction. And have you read anything recently that's been very good? Could be for adults or younger readers, doesn't matter.
Track 1Um, the last book I read was, American Cult. That was put out by Silver Sprocket, and it's an anthology of true stories about, cults throughout history. I thought that was fascinating.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606That sounds really interesting. Was that as research or as a result of writing Occulted?
Track 1Well, I mean, because I had just written Occulted, I, I, you know, Occulted was already done. I wanted to, it was one of the first books I checked out when I went back to the U. S. because I, Like, a lot of times I don't get to read books until, like, a couple years after they come out when I go to America, I'll, like, find time to sit in the library and catch up, because it's harder to get, books here in Korea. There is an English library here, but it's not there, you don't really get the most up to date things, so. I had just written about, uh, cults, and also I love Silver Sprocket, so I wanted to see what they had done on the topic.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606in terms of education, you have been an educator, you do a lot of work with school, visits online and things like that and have worked in education in the past. You've done some English language teaching and things like that. have you used comics in that kind of context? I'm just really interested.
Track 1Yeah, I mean, like, especially in teaching ESL, like one of my favorite things to do is to have kids make a comic either from scratch or give them a comic and let them fill in words because, you know, if someone's trying to fill in a word bubble, it's a lot less daunting than sit down and write me a story in a language you don't know, because anyone, you know, they can know enough to have a conversation and put that into a comic. Um, but. Yeah. For me, I love comics as a teaching tool, because For me, my favorite way to teach is to make learning feel like a magic trick. And comics, a lot of times, people think of as just fun. They don't think they're going to learn something from it. One comic that I find that's very popular called Learn to read Korean in 15 Minutes. And it's this very simple 8 panel comic that gets spread all the time on Reddit. Twitter and all the stuff and people see that first panel that says learn to 50 minutes They assume it's going to be a joke And then eight panels later, they're like, oh my god. I know how to read korean now. And so that's That's that's kind of what I love about comics is that you're able to Make someone learn something and have it feel like magic. Uh, I put the same learning system into, I do a series called Student Ambassador. That I, I don't even pitch them as educational comics, they're adventure stories. And they're, they're comedies. They're adventure, they're, they have drama, but they're about solving a mystery and I try to make all of the clues real facts about the world that kids can get excited about. And so that the same, I put the same Korean learning system in there just because, you know, in any other book someone might solve a mystery by like cracking a code. But instead of just making up a code for the book, the code they have to crack is they found a post it note with an address written in Korean. And they have to. And then at the end of the book, I'm like, Hey kids, guess what? You learned how to read Korean. Here's a mini game. You can go back and like, there's, there's hidden, there's a hidden mini game in Korean throughout the book you can do. So I love being able to make people, you know, learn something when they weren't expecting to and something they thought would be so complicated that they couldn't and then that and then make. People think, Oh, like what else can I learn then? And all the things that I write, whether it's banned book club or occulted or student ambassador, these things, I try to make them the main thing I want people to get from these books is there are so many amazing things about the world that like, I just want you to, to get excited about the possibilities of learning so that you can learn about things that you're passionate about.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606And when you do workshops with children, whether it's online or in person, what are the sorts of things that they want to know? What are the kind of questions that you get asked?
Track 1one of my favorite workshops that I do is called, learned to be a fearless storyteller because storytelling is so important for me and I think it's so important for the world for people to share their stories, I do a workshop where I cure their stage fright and, I do that once again through a series of games and conversations that they don't realize that's what they're doing. And at the end, it's like a magic trick where I'm like, okay, now you're going to get up on stage and tell a story in front of everyone and then they're not afraid. so that's, that's kind of one of the things that I love to do, but a lot of the other workshops are, um, Like if I'm doing an author visit where it's more about me and my books, every group of kids is different. Sometimes there's kids who are interested in making comics, they ask me questions about that. And a lot of times it's kids interested in the history that they learned that they had never heard about before. And so they ask a lot of questions about that. one of my favorite things to do is just, show up. When like book clubs read my books, I'll just sign up as a normal person to show up and, uh, you know, I, I don't, I don't do that if it's a kid's group, cause I don't want the librarian or teacher to be like, why is there a 40 year old dude showing up to my kid's book club? But if it's like a, if it's, if it's for older readers, it's so much fun just to show up and everybody's introducing themselves. And I'm like, I'm Ryan. I wrote the book. They're like, wait, you what? And being able to answer the questions.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606And do you sit in on them discussing your books as well? Do you hear their thoughts of you? Do you find that an interesting experience?
Track 1Yeah, it's, it's,
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Or do you think they filter a lot once you're there? Hmm.
Track 1yeah. I mean, I, and I always, I always tell them like, I'll, I'll go away so you can discuss it. Or like when I make plans that come in, I'm like, I always. I always offer to like, okay, you start at 2, would you like me to come in at 2. 30 so you can talk first? But no one ever wants to, they always want me there. I mean, and people have gotten very deep into, into it. Like, I don't think they really, filter themselves. Because people will, will tell me the issues they have with the book. And I'll be like, yeah, I agree with you, that's fine.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Yeah, and has it ever sort of informed what you've gone on to do next, the feedback that you've got from people? I find the kind of relationship, because it's normally, well it can be quite a distance one, kind of between writer and reader, I find these moments when creators come together with their audience I find really fascinating, and the kind of impact that they can have.
Track 1Well, I mean, just seeing the interest people had in Banned Book Club is what led me to do more books on the topic, like Occulted and No Rules Tonight. but one of the biggest impacts is for when I do, workshops with younger people. A lot of time we talk about student ambassador in my middle grade series. And there was one workshop where, just on a whim, we were looking at the book and there's this little monkey character that doesn't have a name. And I asked the kids what I should name the monkey and they. They named him Yuki Tambo, which is such a very specific name. But that's what they came up with, and it was so fascinating that in the next book I put that name in the book. And then I ended up, every workshop I did after that, I chose a different animal character that didn't have a name. And I had them name it, and now there's a whole chapter in the new book that's coming out that has all of those characters, their names, and which school named them. And then I made a comic about Yuki Tambo that, was inspired by those kids.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606I imagine that they are absolutely thrilled when they find that out. I just want to ask you a little bit about if you have a kind of typical creative process I love to know these things about people.
Track 1whatever I'm writing, I watch it in my head like a movie. I don't do my writing at a keyboard. I'll do my writing walking, riding my bike, taking a bus. And I just kind of like, as I'm riding my bike, it's like I pull a little DVD off my shelf. Like, oh, I haven't watched this one in a while. And just watch the story in my head. And every time it changes a little bit. And after, sometimes, there have been books that I've just thought about for like ten years. And I'll be like... I've watched, it's like, it's like if you've seen a movie a million times, but no, you can't show it to anyone else because it doesn't exist. So I get to a keyboard and it's like, It's like, it's like trying to, you know, write down the script to your favorite movie, there are a lot of the things that are more my personal, like fiction stories that like I've might've been thinking about since I was in high school.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606That's really interesting. And I think that's a good message for, for people, maybe, you know, teachers who are listening, who have got ideas for stories that they've on, that you can always go back and, just if you haven't, doesn't matter if you haven't acted on it, if you feel like you've got an idea from a story, you can still go back and, and dig up those ideas that you had from your mind and just start getting them down. I think that's really interesting.
Track 1And I think it's important to like, never, you never give up on a story. Don't throw it away. Just keep it in your mind. And like, even for me, like if a lot of people, they're like waiting for their big break and they're like, you know, they don't start writing anything until they get a deal, like. I say, if you're excited about an idea and you're passionate about it, just sit down and write it, even if you don't do anything with it, even if you write it and put it on a hard drive. Like, what happened with Student Ambassador is that's something I, I wanted to do in high school. And, I wrote the script, and then, like, it got, it got rejected a bunch, and then I'm like, I, I'll worry about that later, and I moved on to other things. And then, like, cause I, I, for years and years, I made a lot of comics, but they all went online cause I never got any, book deals. And then after Band Book Club happened and, and was very successful, all of a sudden people are interested in things that I wrote. So, immediately I'm like, hey, I got this script sitting here that I wrote like 10 years ago and I sold that script. So, just don't give up on the things you're excited about.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Yeah, I was reading Linda Barry's, book, Syllabus, and in there, she says, she was working with students who don't see themselves as being creative, or not very good writers, not very good at drawing, and, um, they, she sort of says that, people wouldn't imagine, Being a musician and not practicing and just chipping away and improving, improving. You won't go straight to being a concert pianist. You have to put in the work and it's the same with writing and I thought, yeah, that's so true.
Track 1Of people are afraid, you know, they think that there, there's nothing interesting about them. They have nothing, nothing interesting to say in a story. So part of that workshop I talked about. Uh, that I do with, with, with kids and adults is I have the bore me game where I dare them to bore me. I say, tell me, tell me a story about your life that is so boring I could not possibly be interested. And they will say the, like, they'll say something about their life. And I will go off for five minutes about how fascinating that is and what I would do if I were writing a comic about it. And then I tell them about how. You know, Hyunsook and every other member of her band, Book Club, thought their book was too boring. They're like, why are you writing a book about this? Who's going to want to read it? And I tell them, like, have you ever read Smile by Raina Telgemeier? That's about a kid going to the dentist. You've been to a dentist. it's all about just... Telling a good story and that just if you practice telling stories, you can make any story fascinating,
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606yeah, that's so true. And I really hope that, even though time is often, you know, a challenge, especially if you're a teacher, but, you know, as ad adults, I do think I'm on, I feel like I'm on a little bit of a mission to encourage more people to, write and to draw for pleasure, because I do think it's something that can... Just, so many people have in childhood that they don't take, take into adulthood. yeah, I think it's really important to encourage that as much as possible. So, if anyone's listening, that, has been sitting on a story, just start writing it down. At the end of the podcast, we like to, have a moment of reflection to pick out any key takeaways or themes. If there's anything that you've got a burning desire to say that you haven't yet, you can say it now. Or also just, you know, pick out a few things that you've already said that might be just things for educators who are listening to think about
Track 1you know, like, like I was saying, like my approach to teaching is I, I want to teach kids how to learn and I want to show them how amazing it can be to learn about something you're passionate about or to learn something you didn't expect you were going to learn from and and yeah, Then let them to take that into life to learn about what they love And that's what I try and do in my books and in my workshops just by Surprising them number one surprising them with knowledge and having like I love anything anytime I can work on that little twist where I like guess what you just learned This incredibly complicated thing you never thought you could learn and then seeing like the look in their eyes, when they realize what they've accomplished, and being able to take that into life. So I, I always try and create that magic trick or just that passion. I want people to be excited about learning and not just here's a specific thing I want to teach you and I, the other thing is about what I've learned in writing these books is that knowledge can literally save a life. And all of these dangerous situations my coauthors have been in, it's knowledge that saved them. it wasn't a superhero.. It was them learning the truth about their situation so that they can do what they need to do to get to safety. So yeah, those are my takeaways, I think.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606Those are brilliant, thank you. And finally, if we were to add one comic or book, to our to be read pile tomorrow, what would you recommend us to go away and read?
Track 1it's not a comic, but my favorite book of all time is called the Kim Jong Il Production. it is by Paul Fisher, and it is the true story. Of how one day, Kim Jong Il decided that North Korean movies were boring, so he had his favorite director kidnapped. And he had his favorite, uh, actress kidnapped, and he forced them to make a Rubber Suit Monster movie for him. And it is a true story that he will, not only, it's not only like an action packed, drama, but it's also will show you so much about... How the world works and how the the way politics work is the same way that movies work and It's just a fascinating story.
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606The synopsis alone has blown my mind. I really want to read that. That sounds brilliant. That sounds really, really interesting. So, thank you very much for that recommendation, and thank you for coming on to the podcast. It's been absolutely fascinating. I've learned loads, and I really, really enjoyed reading banned book club and Occulted. I thought they were both fantastic, and I look forward to reading more of your work. So, thank you very much.
Track 1Well, I appreciate you having me and Since we mentioned doing workshops if anyone out there Wants a free workshop. I do free workshops for any school any library any book club Just find me at Ryan Estrada comm and say hey, you're doing a workshop for me, and I'll say okay
lucy-sb--she-her-_1_07-10-2023_150606That's absolutely an amazing offer. I'm sure lots of people will absolutely be snapping that up. Um, yeah, I particularly love the sound of the, being a fearless, fearless storyteller. Yeah, I think everyone could do with a bit of that in their life. So thank you so much, Ryan. It's been absolutely brilliant having you on the podcast.
Then we haven't. I love talking to Ryan. I think he had so many great insights and interesting point of view if you'd like to follow Ryan on Twitter, on Instagram, you can find the details of that in the show notes, and also linked to Ryan's website, where you can take. Him up on that very generous offer of. A free online visit for your class, or comics group. Great offer. So. Definitely snap that one up. And it's there permanently. It's not, not for a limited time only. We talked a lot about bands books, And I thought it'd be really interesting to actually hear from an American. Organization called the comic book, legal defense fund. They are a nonprofit organization in America, dedicated to protecting. The rights of the comics art form. Retailers, creators, publishers. Librarians and readers it provides legal advice and campaigns. Against banning. And they've got some really interesting information. We were trying to line up them coming and forming a part of this episode, but we couldn't get our timings quite right. So hopefully they'll appear. On a future episode of the podcast to talk a little bit about their work. But in the meantime, I thought I'd just spend a moment to highlight. Some of the things they've got available. On their website. So there was a long history. within the comics of censorship, right from the, from the 1950s onwards, which has really impacted the way that comics are sold and the way that they are viewed in society. There's some really interesting historical information. Around the American. Context of that on the comic book, legal defense funds website. So you can have a little look at the history. There's also some teaching resources. Access to information and how to talk about banned books, how to plan events during band. Book week, which has been happened very recently or. How to challenge censorship that you think might be happening in your school or library? Library. We tend to think of that more as an a, in an American context. I think here in the UK, however, I think there are definitely more and more instances. Of nervousness around book content happening. Within the communities in the UK. As well, so definitely think it's something just to. To engage with. And, and be thinking about. If you look at some of the case studies on, the CB LDF website, you can find case studies around books like drama by Raina Telgemeier. Jerry crafts, new kids. These are books that you'll be very familiar with that are being, campaigned. Against, uh, So i think that's a really interesting context but then also some titles that are mentioned very famous titles that i mentioned very often on the podcast by guests things like persepolis Craig thompson's blankets as well there's some case studies on there Of times when they've been banned as well so i think there's a really really interesting resource Wherever you are in the world to just dig into and start thinking about the role that censorship has in its chair and i just wanted to flag that i think it's a good recommendation if you're looking for something interesting and new to look into if you've been concerned about any of the stories that have been circulating recently definitely Motivation to leave. that's it thank you so much for so. so thank you We did record that a while ago he has been very patient waiting for hi episode to come out. Definitely worth it, I really loved this episode If you would like to find out more about what's coming up on the podcast episodes We'll be back season four in the new year.. can what to date with everything Podcast instagram page comic Underscore boom underscore podcast. you can also follow me on twitter on at Lucy undescore Braidley And the score breathe and you can also task by donationor by buying of mine those are avail of those functions Kofi so Very well, you can also online fuse bins As to connect with your interested we've grown So that's been cute but live in a no who's got in, in the community Make that happen much. Or to bring in you The Episodes thanks you've been listening to Which has been hosted by me Lucy Starbuck bBraidley
