Comic Boom - Comics in Education - with author and illustrator Eliza Fricker

In this episode Lucy chats to author and illustrator Eliza Fricker.

Eliza Fricker is an author & illustrator, and an advocate & consultant for PDA, autism and learning.

She has published several books, including the Sunday Times Bestselling title “Can’t Not Won’t”, and the acclaimed autobiographical “Thumbsucker” released in November 2023.

Connect with Eliza:
Missing the Mark
X: @_missingthemark
Insta: @elizafricker_missingthemark
Facebook: MissingTheMark1

• Details of the Tara Togs Kickstarter can be found here.
• Read the National Literacy Trust's report on children and young people's engagement with reading comics can be found here.

Producer and Host: @Lucy_Braidley
Contact: comicboompodcast@gmail.com
Music by John_Sib from Pixabay

Transcript

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0:06

Hello. And welcome to comic boom, the comics in education podcast. If you're interested in hearing more about the crossover between comics and education, then this is the podcast for you. My name is Lucy St arbuck Braidley And each week I'll be joined by fellow educator and academic librarian or a creator of comics to discuss their journey into comics and provide some inspiration to influence your practice. And hopefully shine some light on some titles that you can bring into your libraries and classrooms and onto your bookshelves at home as well. Today I am joined by Eliza Fricker. Eliza is an author and illustrator and an advocate and consultant for PDA autism and learning. She's published several books, including the Sunday times bestselling title. Can't not won't and the acclaimed autobiographical thumb sucker released in November, 2023. I love both. I'm a massive fan of Eliza's work, as you will hear, throughout the episode. Eliza offers a range of support for parents on navigating autism and education. That's very much the focus of her work. There's a great podcast on Spotify, which I'll link in the show notes too. It all started with her blog missing the mark, which is a great thing to delve into as well. And it's still available Eliza's work powerfully, depicts the experiences of many families who find their family's needs. Aren't served by the current education system. And for me, it highlights the power of comics and being able to put the reader. Firmly into another person's shoes. Reading can't not won't make me really reflect on many aspects of my own teaching practice. And made me reflect on many perspectives, which are quite, prevalent in our education system. We really have an in-depth discussion in this episode about those kinds of perspectives and the difficulties with them. We talked today in quite an open and Frank way, um, which at times does criticize the, the education system in the UK. So do buckle up. But I think these were all conversations that we really need to have wherever on that scale, your opinion falls.. I'd like to say also in today's episode, I share some personal experiences as a parent of a child with special educational needs, who sometimes doesn't want to go to school too sometimes, but not all the time, but sometimes. and I'm really aware that the issues and barriers that we face in our family are a fraction of what other families face. It's not my intention to over-exaggerate that or to minimize other people's experiences. But hopefully just to highlight some of the context to my own. Very personal reaction to Eliza's work. I think this is a great listen. Um, really powerful, very thought provoking. Here's what Eliza had to say.

Lucy SB 2:36

Hello, Eliza. Welcome to Comic Boom.

Eliza Fricker 2:38

Hi, thanks for having me.

Lucy SB 2:40

You are very welcome. I always like to start the podcast in the same way, which is to ask guests to say a little bit about their own journey as a comics reader. First of all, where did that start for you? Is that something that you've always done or maybe it's not part of your reading diet anymore? What can you tell us?

Eliza Fricker 3:00

I've always read comics, from the Dandy and the Beano, and I've never stopped. So then I moved on to graphic novels, and they've always chimed and resonated with me. I found there's always been a more honest and It's kind of, and almost kind of raw portrayal of life in them that I can really relate to. Um, I've never sort of, I've never been drawn to anything that's sort of of the fantasy genre but certainly anything that's real life, autobiographical, that kind of thing within the comic graphic novel, medium I just, I love it and always have.

Lucy SB 3:35

Yeah, I really love autobiographical comics as well. So do you think your interest came from the story itself and the way that stories are told in comics or from you, you are an illustrator yourself. Was it, was it more the artistic side that was drawing you in, in that kind of first instance, do you think?

Eliza Fricker 3:53

Um, I think there's something about comics that you can put the nuances in that I would struggle to convey myself. In just writing, I think it leaves a lot of space as well for people to engage with that how they want. actually an editor did say to me a long time ago, she said, you leave a lot of space in your work, there's a lot of gaps, because obviously you get people who illustrate graphic novels with all the detail. Um, I tend to remove it actually, and my work is very, immediate, so it looks quite scratchy. That's because there's a pace to how I do it. It's a way, because I'm using it to process as well, it's very fast how I get it on the paper and I leave it like that.

Lucy SB 4:36

And in turn, are those the kind of approaches that you appreciate in other people's work? Or do you find yourself also liking the more contrast, the more detailed things in your, in terms of what you pick up and read?

Eliza Fricker 4:48

Yeah, I'm amazed when people can have that sort of detail in it because it shows there's a, um, it's probably my ADHD as well that I, I just would not have that patience to be able to plan and put it all down with that sort of detail because I'd be wanting to rush and move on to the next bit and I'd be worried I'd forget the next bit too. So there's an envy to people who can do that and plan so methodically, but for me it's very much about the immediacy of getting it out there. Do

Lucy SB 5:24

In terms of did comics form part of your school journey? I know that you, obviously, a lot of your work focus is around kind of the experience of school and the education system. But did comics actually feature in your own educational journey?

Eliza Fricker 5:39

I was always reading them and I was, I think they've helped me process a lot. You know, as someone who, is neurodivergent myself, the world is quite confusing. And for me, any book, but particularly graphic novels as a visual communicator, were a way of me trying to make sense of the world. And there was something, I think, that people who write graphic novels. I wouldn't like to say they're all neurodivergent. I couldn't say that, but there's certainly, I would say that people who do write and draw them tend to be outsiders. So that was something for me that really helped me growing up, to feel that there were these other people out there that were seemingly struggling with the life and the world that was presented to us.

Lucy SB 6:24

Mm. It's quite a broad question. You've touched on some elements there. What do you feel that writing and drawing comics has kind of given you over the years? Has it been a sort of support structure for you?

Eliza Fricker 6:36

Yeah, I mean absolutely. It, I know that word empowerment does get banded around a lot but for me there have been several major experiences in my life where I have felt, enormously that things were out of my control. Um, and it gave me some voice and some control back. I'm not very good at That's the wrong thing to say, I'm not meant to be negative about how I process the world, but I've struggled to, in a lot of situations. in the moment, um, because of my processing. And so, I can appear like a people pleaser or a fawner, just because I'm finding that situation incredibly difficult. And then that shifts it from feeling like I've been in control of that situation because I've tended to agreed with everything that's been said becasue I can't follow what is being said.. Um, and then it's, so it's in hindsight when I can use my drawing to process that stuff. And I have, it's amazing because I might struggle to take it in at the time, but then the drawing and the writing after really helped me pull it back out and remember what had happened. And also to put my own. narrative on it. I think for a lot of people who are neurodivergent, we feel that other people take our voices away. So it's really important to put our voices back into, into our own stories, really.

Lucy SB 8:03

Yeah, I just think there's such power in, in being able to tell your own story. And I think comics is just a really accessible way to encourage people to have, to have their own voice and to talk about their own experiences and the world as they see it as well. There's some great people doing excellent work out there, but it's not something that's widespread and it's really underutilized, I think, in schools, that kind of creative writing and artistic as a way of processing, the world.

Eliza Fricker 8:30

Well, there's not enough art in school, full stop. It's kind of, it's another thing I feel really passionate about is that we are told there are essential subjects and others are less important and that's, that's a very difficult thing. When you're an interest based learner and you're neurodivergent and you don't get to do those subjects that are so vitally important for you. It's really tough.

Lucy SB 8:52

Yeah, even, I was having a conversation with my daughter last night, who's about to choose her options, for year 10. And she said that her art teacher at school told her not to do art unless she wanted to, as a GCSE, unless she was thinking of a creative career. I was like, what? It has value in of itself, surely.

Eliza Fricker 9:11

Wow.

Lucy SB 9:12

yeah, I know,

Eliza Fricker 9:12

And also the idea that you're going to know at that age where you're going to go in life is

Lucy SB 9:17

Exactly, that kind of binary, you're either arty or you're not, and you just get, yeah, funneled off, don't you? Just before we, we're going to talk about your work in a detail in this podcast, but before we go on to talk about, your own books, I just wondered what you've mentioned, you're interested in kind of autobiographical comics and just an opportunity for you to give some shout outs to some of your favorites or some things that you're reading currently, that maybe people listening might also like to look into.

Eliza Fricker 9:47

I think the, I've read Daniel Clowes most recent one. That was the last thing I read, that was a graphic novel. I think Daniel Clowes faces are the most amazing faces. If you haven't read them, you have to just look. I see, I don't know if you do this, but I see when I walk around. people that look like Daniel Clow's faces now. They are just so brilliant, um, I love them. I don't know, I'm just looking at my shelf of graphic novels. I have a lot, uh, over there but, I'm reading, I'm reading a school book as I call it. I have to try and sort of absorb things from my work as well so I'm

Lucy SB 10:24

Hmm. Yeah.

Eliza Fricker 10:25

Attempting a non fiction but I'm not great at

Lucy SB 10:28

A lot of research and things like that.

Eliza Fricker 10:30

Yeah.

Lucy SB 10:33

I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about how you became, an illustrator, how that journey through the education system, the other influences in your life that led you to kind of having that role.

Eliza Fricker 10:43

well I've always drawn. It's always been a huge comfort to me. I did draw in one of, well I put in one of my books, the back of one of my school books because I was always told off for doodling and it's absolutely covered in doodles because it was a way I could concentrate and was to squibble. But I used to draw a lot with my dad. My dad's was a political cartoonist for the National Press and he was a stay at home parent, so I'd sort of come home from school and, we'd sit and we'd draw stuff together, um, and we'd draw people we'd seen in our local area and we gave them nicknames. so it was definitely something that made me feel really comforted. The humour element I found just amazing. I just loved it, and I loved that connection that it brought with my dad, who was sort of my safe person. and so that's just really carried on through my life. I've never really stopped drawing. I did work as a designer for a few years, designing wallpapers, but that was really boring, and I found the design world really boring. Writing books is, I think it's that connection to have, it's always having that emotional connection to stuff, gives that kind of fire and interest to it. And, so that for me, being able to do what I do now has really kind of just honed in on my special interest really. And I need to feel that real energy and excitement from what I do. I've never been very good at doing jobs where I don't have that.

Lucy SB 12:18

In your book, Can't Not Won't, I recently, I gave it to a colleague actually as a present. And I put in the, on the tag, the, the truth of this is, this is, is heartbreaking. I just felt like it really is an honest and really open reflection on some of the issues with the education system. This podcast is for teachers, librarians, people working in the education system. So definitely recommend that everyone gets themselves a copy and, reads it because it really clearly just depicts part of the, experience that I don't think as teachers in school, we get to see, we don't see what happens at home. We don't see what the parents necessarily thinking when they're sat in those meetings and when they're walking away. And I just think it's a real eye opener. And I know in terms of, you know, you're depicting the kind of early days of school avoidance in primary school and then through to secondary school. And it's an experience that many people have, but not everyone's shared their experiences more widely. I just wondered what the kind of journey was for you to be able to get to the point where you wanted to and were able to share your story, yours and your daughter's story in this way.

Eliza Fricker 13:33

it wasn't until we were sort of out of it that I could do it. Um, because I think I was, well, we were both in sort of survival mode when we were going through those experiences. but a lot of it was, was rage. You know, I felt absolute rage for quite a long time. It's really about the sort of lack of empathy, um, that I remember after it had happened, the sort of the last day, if you like, in the breakdown, and I was just walking the dog and I was chatting to one of the, the women I know in the neighborhood who also walks her dog, and, uh, she just, when I explained what had happened, this awful experience on the last day, she said, But, you know, that's a little, little girl, that's a little child. And, you know, I thought if someone that I just know on a dog walk says that, you know, how far have we come where we are so desensitized to this harm that we're actually causing children? and I think that that was a big driving force was, you know, to put that rage somewhere for sure, because I knew that it wasn't worth sending emails. Um, you know, I know parents who log complaints and have folders full of complaints to school governors and local authorities, and I know what happens in those situations. I know why people do it, because they're really upset, but I know that the, unfortunately, ranks close you will get a politician's answer. and I knew it was futile, so for me this was power to say, this is what happened. and if you read this and you feel empathy, then I've done something. Because that's all I'm asking, is that people are empathetic. I mean, I read something just before meeting you, just now, um, on Twitter. And it was a head teacher saying, I don't know why we need these trauma informed, restorative practices in our education. We just need rules. And you read these things and you think, who are you? You know, have you, it's so removed from just being kind to a human. It's just amazing.

Lucy SB 15:54

I've certainly, so just from terms of my own experiences, with my child has definitely had, he's a lot better now, a lot more settled, but definitely, um, he, was finding school very difficult. And, that experience. has made me have some really deep and honest reflections over decisions that I made or ways that I acted as when I was a teacher when I was inside the system. And I realize I was wrong. Basically, I realized that when you're in that system, you feel quite helpless as well. As a teacher, you feel like, well, I can't I can't change the system. The system is the system. The child has to come to school. I don't know what to do about that if they don't want to. And I definitely, I've sat there saying they're fine when they're here. definitely said that. And I thought I, that, that, that was what I saw in front of me. But I also know that my son is fine when he's there is when he gets home and he lets it all out that he's not fine. Um, and so I definitely feel That it, I can, you know, it's eye opening for me to be able to read your work and, but, but also I've reflected on that from my own experiences, but we need to be better than that because you shouldn't have to be a parent and experiencing it in order to be able to understand it. So I think that's where the power, you know, to be able to. There's something about the way that you create images that just really opens up and explains all the different feelings, emotions, thoughts in a way you know, it wouldn't be as powerful if it was just prose or if it was communicated in another way.

Eliza Fricker 17:33

And I, you know, I understand, I understand that it isn't, you know, this, it's, the system is so inflexible. I met lots and lots of nice teachers and it's not about that. It's about, you know, we are stuck as parents and the professionals are also stuck with this really inflexible system. But the thing that would have made, you know, a huge difference, and I always say, no one ever said to me, You know what? School doesn't work for all kids. And no one ever said there's other families like you. And so that puts families in a very isolated position. And isolation is not good. We need communities. Putting families in isolation like that with their experiences is really harmful.

Lucy SB 18:24

Yeah, completely agree. And I, I'm imagining that there's quite a kind of community around your work that parents who've had similar experiences have reached out to you. what sort of feedback have you had from them?

Eliza Fricker 18:38

Yeah, I mean I have I have a big, you know, Facebook's probably the biggest following. I think, I don't know what it's up to now, I think it's about 50, And I do probably between six and ten consults a week, so that's meeting families who just want to sort of talk through their situation. And I think they just want to hear that it will be okay to do something different. Because that's something that, like I said earlier, professionals are not really allowed to say. Um, and so families who are in crisis need to know there are options out there. they need to know that. It is okay to do something quite different for their children. And to hear that that can actually be a really much brighter place to be for the whole family. It isn't just school. And I love hearing families when they tell me about different, ways they've gone with their children's learning and their lives and how it's can change that all like the whole family's lives. I love, you know, and hearing how happy they are and, You know, from the place they were in, dragging children into school and shouting and everyone miserable and, you know, dealing with meetings and paperwork, there is another way and it's, and it's just lovely hearing families when they tell me, you know, it's working. This is, this is where we should have been years ago. This is, This is, good.

Lucy SB 19:57

And there's so much fear associated with making that leap outside because I'm imagining it feels very much like you care, you'd be judged, that you're then, you know, you'll be blamed in terms of, you know, labelled in terms of as a parent who's not making the best decisions for their child, if it doesn't work out well, or if, you know, there's risks associated with stepping outside of that mainstream, isn't there? It must be a really difficult thing to do, especially when you're, you know, feeling isolated.

Eliza Fricker 20:25

Yeah, and it's, we have these anchors in life, don't we? School, marriage, work, Um, and we, they're there for a reason, they make us feel like we're doing the right thing, that we're on track, so to remove that, feels really scary, but there's lots and lots of different ways to go, and there's also other ways of dipping in and out, and, you know, it might not even be forever, you might have to take a step out for a bit, and then you step back in, or it might be a completely different sort of, environment, learning environment, but um, there are lots of different ways to go. But I think when you initially are thinking about that, it is school or what, and school or home. And as, you know, parents, we've done the baby years, we've, it's scary to think we could potentially have to be at home with a child again.

Lucy SB 21:21

so I'm interested in the kind of process to creating can't, not, won't. I just wonder, you know, you've said that you just didn't have the capacity, it could only be done after the fact. Do you think that that fact that you're kind of reflecting back has, and that you kind of know the outcome, I guess, changed the work itself? Do you think that that was a really necessary part of, of creating what it is that you've created? In terms of it being a reflection rather than in the moment. Yeah,

Eliza Fricker 21:52

that's very much how, how I go about life. It's often a reflection. Um, it's not, not in the moment. but I was, I do remember sort of sitting in situations. The one that really stands out for me was, we were sent on a six week course, which was, for children, autistic children to transition to secondary school. And, I don't know how many, maybe 12 parents were in that room. Most of us had children who were barely going in. And it was the most bizarre meeting set of meetings I've ever been to. I think I managed two or three. they'd stuck a piece of blue tarpaulin on the back wall. And they were using post it notes to sort of put up our, you know, ideas and whatever. And, they were just completely ignoring the room. They were not reading the room. You know, we're sitting there saying, look, you know, I've got a kid that's not getting in, or I've got a kid that's, you know, smashing up the house. And they were completely whitewashing us. It'll be fine. What they need is a map. They need to know. And you're just thinking, You have not got a clue. And, um, I just thought it was so comical that I had to draw it. I thought, this is so surreal. Um, and this is the sort of things that I feel are, really are places that can be changed. You know, parents want to hear the truth. Parents want to hear the truth. hear the real, the realness and we do not get that from the local authority, we do not get that from the coffee mornings or the parents groups, it's very much just try harder, keep trying, keep pushing. Um,

Lucy SB 23:38

I mean, it's fascinating just to hear there's a six week course because I mean, I think I've probably had half a day's training on anything to do with autism the whole time, decade I was a teacher.

Eliza Fricker 23:47

or maybe it was just for us, the ones really on our knees, they thought we needed six weeks of it.

Lucy SB 23:55

Um, yeah, the emphasis does seem to be a little bit in the wrong area there. Um, yeah, it's really, really interesting and I guess it is again, it's that it gives you an opportunity to be a fly on the wall outside of your own personal experience, but there's something about that combination of image and words that I just feel can put you in a room with other people in a way that is really hard to achieve. In any other medium. I wanted to ask you a little bit about how you kind of navigated. The depiction of, because it's not just your experience, it's also your daughter's experience, and there's a dedication at the back of Can't Not Won't which is directly speaking to her and it was very beautiful. and I just wondered how you navigated including her in the book and if she has, you know, her views of it and how you kind of did that. Dealt with that. It was quite complicated, I imagine.

Eliza Fricker 24:49

Yeah, it is, and it's, you know, something I'm very mindful of. I never, I would never post a photo online. I know there are people who share their sort of Family experiences and they do share a lot of pictures of their children online. That's not something I would be comfortable to do. you know, I, I keep the name different. I don't share anything about, you know, that could kind of reveal, um, who, who she is. Um, and actually, as it's developed, Missing the Mark, It's become a mother and child, other people's experiences as well have fed into that. So a lot of the drawings I do now are much more We've become almost symbols of the parent child rather than it being, um, a direct experience. And there is so much that I haven't shared, you know, there's lots and lots of bits of this I would never share. they're too personal, they're too upsetting, and they're not, it just, I, I'm, I have a I have a real line in my head of how far and what I will share. Um, you know, I'm actually a really quite, we're quite private people. So, you know, I'm, I'm really aware of that. And obviously I asked her beforehand, would this be okay to do? Um, and you know, I made sure that I had her permission to do it.

Lucy SB 26:08

what does she think of it now that it's out there in the world and become a kind of a community, a movement even?

Eliza Fricker 26:16

not really that interested, more interested in sort of, trainers and, music and going out with friends and Deliveroo. Um, so not massively interested, I have to say, but she obviously knows because I work from home and she's in and out that, you know, that my work revolves around that. But yeah, it's not something she really talks about, really. She's just not interested. It's the adult world, I guess.

Lucy SB 26:42

Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? I think sometimes I'm like, what do I have to do to make people proud around here? Goodness me, I'm like, yeah, I'm working really hard over

Eliza Fricker 26:52

that come? I'm just wondering that. When do we sort of look back and sort of I don't know.

Lucy SB 26:57

I'm working really hard to be a role model and no one's noticed. I'm sure they will at some point. Just thinking about, your work. I feel like there's just so many audiences. we've spoken about parents kind of reaction, people going through similar experiences. I'm obviously taking things as an educator that I feel, and I, I learned a lot from it and Were you thinking about educators as a potential audience when you wrote, well, any of your books really? and what do you hope that educators take from, from your work?

Eliza Fricker 27:34

Yeah, I'm definitely, I'm definitely thinking about them. I'm, I, I want to, I want to close the us and them gap. Um, I want, I want more real conversations. I want to be seen as a, as an intellectual person rather than just mum. I think I've done quite a few posts about mum says. I got, Probably one of the most devastating things, actually, was I got, I retrieved, we have a sort of autism slash inclusion service, um, where we live. And I requested, I don't normally do this, but I think, I can't remember, I had to do something that, I needed that information they had. I said, oh, can I have the file that you have? and I think we'd been seeing them probably by then about four years. Um, termly they came into the school and a couple of meetings at home and things like that. So I was sort of expecting this, you know, big file, box file, and it was one A4 sheet of paper and it was handwritten note on it. And it literally was scribbled on and it just said, Mum's anxious, worried about sports day. She's fine when she's here. And it was just, that to me was just incredibly insulting. And I've actually shared it quite a lot, which I wouldn't normally do because I'm not into the kind of mudslinging at all. I really want to work together, but that to me felt really disrespectful. and I, uh, and particularly, well one, the lack of the lack of input and effort, and the amount of upset and trauma. That was every time I had to meet with them. the disregard of, of our situation. But the mom says, I, I'm, I'm really upset with that because I think that we need it. It puts us on a different level. As soon as you say that, you are not saying. My name, you're not seeing me on an even keel, you're seeing me on a different level to whoever's writing that or listening. so it's little things like that that are really important.

Lucy SB 29:46

I think it also, there's, um, this kind of separation of information that comes from home versus information that's gathered in school. And that those things that there's a hierarchy there,

Eliza Fricker 29:57

Yeah.

Lucy SB 29:58

that I think. That could again be, that's quite a simple fix. Just actually, just because you haven't seen it with your own eyes doesn't mean that, you know, I share my own personal experience. Recently I had an Ed Psych report from my son that just said, parents report sensory needs at home. And then that wasn't, that wasn't. mentioned again at all in the whole assessment. It's like, of course, there's no sensory needs when you're sat in a small office, but have you tried taking him to a cafe that smells funny? Or put socks on in the morning? Or all this long list of things, which are really actually impactful and upsetting for him and for us. And because it doesn't influence the school day, just get one sentence on the report. And it's that kind of. parceling up and the hierarchy of what's important and what's not that I think is, is quite difficult.

Eliza Fricker 30:46

and I think that, I think one of the really difficult things is for parents to sit in that room And have a meeting with whoever it is, whether it's the class teacher or the SENCO. and share those difficult, difficult things about what it is like with your child. You know, I'm not saying everyone can be kind of trauma informed, but to understand how traumatizing that is for a parent to say, that things are horrendous at home. We are very very vulnerable when we're saying this stuff, and we're often asked to keep sharing it as well. There isn't much mindfulness of what that does to people's mental health, We just need to, I mean, ideally we would have more trauma informed practice, but, you know, it is that kind of thing that I hope I kind of convey in the book, is that how hard we are all trying, the family and the child, to do what school want us to do, and we very much won't be sitting in a meeting and saying, how dreadfully hard it is if it wasn't dreadfully hard. It's a very difficult thing to admit as a parent that what you're doing is not enough.

Lucy SB 32:07

If we talk about one of your other more recent books, Thumbsucker, can you give an introduction to anybody who's listening who maybe hasn't read it yet?

Eliza Fricker 32:15

so Thumbsucker is about my childhood growing up in the 80s in suburbia. Undiagnosed autistic. So I used the different names that I was called because of my behavior or how I presented to others. So I've used those things like chatterbox, fickle, hypochondriac. then I've put stories to hopefully reframe how people see those things, those presentations and those names that were linked to those presentations. and there's lots of, 80s references like Bergerac is in there, salad cream sandwiches, all the really essential things for childhood at that time. but I've also hopefully shown. It was difficult the bit with my parents because I wanted to show, obviously it was baffling to them, a lot of this stuff. the meltdowns and the holidays and the meals that were seemingly ruined. But I also wanted to show that actually, you know, they were pretty low demand. I talk a lot about low demand parenting in my work. They were pretty low demand. The fact that there, I did have this sort of restricted eating, and they were able to just make me a salad cream sandwich probably did save me, um, because they, they were very relaxed with me overall. and that was. really helpful. but I think the confusion was the difficult bit, but you know, knowing they were confused or disappointed, was a big weight on my shoulders for sure.

Lucy SB 34:02

And so therefore, have you found, has diagnosis later in life been a liberating experience to kind of, to put all of those experiences through that lens, I guess, of being able to, frame your experiences within what you now have as, as a diagnosis.

Eliza Fricker 34:18

Yeah, definitely. Because I think what it does is it, I mean, I think there's quite a hefty essay at the, at the back by, Dr. Naomi Fisher, who's a clinical psychologist, about how important it is that we can For adults, it's a reframing of our lives. It's a rewriting of our lives. For a lot of us who think that we are wrong the way we are, we grow up being people pleasers. We don't, we, we lose a sense of importance of self and we do what others want or we think that they want of us. And ultimately that's a really You know, unhappy place to be when you're doing that. and so getting a diagnosis means you can look back on that and kind of rewrite it. and then sort of move forward, hopefully being a bit more authentic to your own needs. But that takes time. You know, I'm still doing it, figuring out what I actually do like and don't like. Because the problem is when you Um, when your behaviour, as it would be called, is deemed to not be appropriate, to the, you know, for example, the levels of distress you feel when you go to an Indian restaurant and there's nothing you can eat, you learn to suppress that distress. Um, and the problem with that is that then as an adult, you don't know what is good for you and isn't good for you. so. One of the things my therapist said is just stick to does it, does this feel good or not? Don't worry about analysing it, does it feel good or not? Now that probably seems really simple for a lot of people but it's certainly not as a late diagnosed autistic person. It's very much figuring out the world now.

Lucy SB 36:06

And did you come to the awareness around your own autism through, through your experiences as being a parent? Mm-Hmm.

Eliza Fricker 36:14

I knew when I was going into that environment again, that school environment, that it felt horrendous. And I knew that I was masking. So much at the school gates in, in the, in those meetings, it was exhausting. And in fact, I met up with an old friend from school who was a parent at school who also is late diagnosed. And she said, Oh, I would never have believed you autistic. She said, you convinced me you were the most neurotypical person I'd ever met. And this was on Saturday. I've just seen her for a coffee. And it made me cry because it showed how much I was trying to. cover up myself, you know, convince people. and that was certainly ramped up being in that school environment for me, but it was meeting people through the work I do now, I just felt really comfortable with them. Um, and I didn't feel that need to mask and actually it creates more authentic connections because when you stop masking, it is the real you a lot more and you suddenly think, Oh, people are kind of, reacting in a, is easier now because people are, I guess, probably when you're masking, people are really confused as to who you are and they can't get a handle on you. so actually you think that the masking is really working. but it's actually creating quite a disconnect, I think, with how you're connecting with people.

Lucy SB 37:43

Yeah. It's really interesting. And it's, I guess getting the diagnosis, having that isn't the end of the journey. There's a whole lot of work afterwards and processing and, and things like explaining to family, friends, as well, it's, it's all part of a long process, I imagine. Yeah.

Eliza Fricker 38:01

definitely. And I think it, you know, you have to give yourself a lot of time with that. And, you know, it might be that it doesn't work with everyone, or sit well with other people. it might be that it gives people that space to consider their own selves a lot more. I've certainly found that with a lot of friends and family that it's, it's, it's almost a sense of relief with a lot of them that they can admit who they Are now..

Lucy SB 38:25

Yeah. I think kind of leads me on to another question that I had, which is around the opportunity for comics to kind of support children and young people that are going through these kind of experiences themselves. You've said that you found it really empowering. To be able to reflect on your experiences and work through them using comics as your tool. And I just, it seems to me that there's a really powerful opportunity to introduce this as something that young people and children can access as well to share their own personal stories. I wonder what your thoughts on

Eliza Fricker 39:01

I think that would be great. Yeah, really good. And I know that a lot of parents have said that they're Children have read my books, which I'm really surprised about, um, and, you know, I've had some really lovely feedback from parents saying that their children have read Thumbsucker and said, you know, this is me, this is how I feel, and that's, that's really amazing, because that's, you know, what I used to feel reading comics myself, you know, this person is a bit like me, um, when you feel quite other, so that's been really nice, and I think, You know, I'm certainly aware that a lot of books that children are given to look at when they are diagnosed autistic can feel quite condescending. and there's a kind of inauthenticity to that, you know, you're meant to be a sort of genius or, you know, I think people just want to know that they're You know, as flawed as anyone else, really, and, um, Yeah, so that's been, that's been really nice, and I, I do think it could be, if that opens up, that other, if young people feel that there's something that they can connect with and that resonates with them, then that, that's brilliant.

Lucy SB 40:11

So we're coming to the end of the podcast and I have a regular kind of way of wrapping things up at the end. I wondered if you could pick out some key takeaways that might influence practice from educators, listening, provide them some food for thought just as we come to the end of the

Eliza Fricker 40:27

I think, I think just try and be authentic with the families they meet and, you know, like I said earlier, I think that we're often desperately searching for that and, and I still remember we had an Ed Pysch who I do feel was really authentic with us and did understand and I still remember him and a lot of the things he said. So those will be really important for families to know that people do understand. They're not saying that there's a magic wand to wave. You know, it's often a very complicated situation, but, you know, be honest and all say to families, you know, do you want to have a really honest chat and, you know, go, go radical with them if you think that they want that and they can take that. Cause I think often we've got to a place anyway, where we're, We're not thinking our children are going to attend every day. We're not thinking they're going to get nine GCSEs. We've moved away from that and we're just looking for some light, really, and to know that there are options and, you know, try and give families options.

Lucy SB 41:31

And our final thing is if we were to add one comic or a book about comics or a book about autism, the kind of topics that we've been discussing today, what book would you recommend we added to our to be read pile?

Eliza Fricker 41:45

I would say if you're exploring diagnosis as an adult for yourself, I've just read Katherine May's book, which is called The Electricity of Every Living Thing. It's a really beautiful book about a woman who goes walking, exploring her own diagnosis, but also it tackles sort of motherhood and perhaps that overwhelm that a lot of women will feel through motherhood, um. and realizing that maybe that's a lot to do with sort of their own processing and sensory needs. So I think it's a really brave, honest book. and I'm just looking at my bookcase now, what else would I recommend? Well I love Letters to My Weird Sisters, which is Joanna Lindbergh's book about, perception of women through history, and again the potential that maybe they were actually neurodivergent. That's a really good book. powerful book.

Lucy SB 42:36

That sounds amazing.

Eliza Fricker 42:37

Yeah, anything by Naomi Fisher if you want to consider other ways to learn, I think that's a really important. Her work is very much about, the classroom not being the only way for children to learn, and gives a really hopeful portrayal of, of other, other things for children and why that, why the classroom may not work for lots of young people.

Lucy SB 42:58

Thank you for those recommendations. And thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I try not to gush too much about people's work because they find it very awkward if I just go on about how much I love their work when I'm talking to them. But I do really love your work. I found it hugely, inspiring and beautiful. So thank you for coming and talking on the podcast and sharing, Your experiences with the listeners. Thanks so much for coming on.

Eliza Fricker 43:21

Thank you.

43:24

There you have it. I hope you found that as fascinating and eye-opening as I did, I would wholeheartedly, or it comes as no surprise. I'll wholeheartedly recommend you get a copy of Eliza's books. I think they're incredible. And I'd love to know your thoughts about what you've heard today. If you've read the books, if you're going to read the books, please do tag me on Twitter. Uh, X don't like on X. do tag me on twitter to get involved in the debate? I'd love to have conversations. More conversations online as, as a result of what people have listened to on the podcast, you can find me on at Lucy underscore Braidley. On Twitter and you can find the podcast on Instagram at comic underscore boom underscore podcast. So I've been busy for those of you who follow me on social media. You have seen that last week. I was part of a team at the national literacy trust that launched a report into children's. Engagement with reading comics. Very exciting. So the report draws on data collected from early 2023 from just over 64,000 children, young people aged eight to 18 from across the UK and explores the attitudes and beliefs of comics readers. Absolutely fascinating open. So excited sitting on all this information, just going to give you a few highlights, a few flavors. The report is completely free to download available on the national literacy trust. Website and I'll put it in the show notes as well. so some of the things that we found include children and young people who read comics are more engaged with reading regardless of their age. So nearly twice as many children and young people who read comics in their free time told us that they enjoyed reading. Compared to those who didn't read comics in their free time. That's fascinating. Isn't it? Something about that? Varied read reading diet. Something about having that access to arrive variety of reading materials. I don't think it's just about the comics, but there's a very interesting. Things that we can infer from that data. More of those who read comics rated themselves as very good or good readers compared with those who didn't read comics again, for me that speaks to. self perception as a reader, confidence, that feeling of being able to complete a text the way in which the images support the understanding, but it's not that it lacks challenge is just that it makes content more accessible. I think that's really interesting. More of those you read comics told us that they read something daily in their free time compared with their peers who did not read comics. So again, Really entrenched into, into those daily reading habits. the Access. The attitude. And the behaviors all come in together. To to form. What we see as a reader. And one of the things that really interesting to me, it was the answer to a why children read comics. Readers of comics were motivated to read for a diverse range of reasons. Children, young people told us that they read comics because they're accessible. Yes. Tick, uh, engaging big tick. They supported their wellbeing. Fantastic and provided opportunities to learn about different cultures. Really, really interesting. And one of the things that I found so fascinating as well as we didn't actually ask children about writing at all, we didn't ask them about whether they wrote comics, where they made comics in their own time, but they wanted to tell us, anyway, they put that in the free text comment box. They volunteered the information that they enjoyed as well as reading. They also enjoyed making comics or it's a small, but very strong subset who, despite not being asked, wanted to share that information. I think there's something so interrelated between that kind of reading and writing for enjoyment that I'd love to explore more, absolutely fascinating. And these findings, they just highlight the importance of children and young people having access to a real broad range of reading materials, which include comics, but it's not limited to comics. But comics there and have just as much right to be there on the library shelves in the classroom. Ready to be accessed. What are we doing? All the listeners of this podcast? I'm sure are advocating for comics to be a fun and legitimate reading format. And if we continue to do that, then I think that It will have a massive impact on the future generation of readers. That report is quite substantial. There's lots more in there. So do dig it out and again, share. I'd love to, share with me on any social media platform, what you thought. Got a shout out today from comic scene. You may remember, earlier in the year, Comic boom was nominated in the comic scene awards for the best podcast. We didn't win, but we don't mind. It's an accolade just to be nominated. so thank you, whoever nominated us. Comic scene, have a Kickstarter going on for a comic called Tara Togs the silence of unicorns. I'm going to read you a little bit more. It looks really, really cool. It has done in the style of Herge and I love Tintin. So it really caught my eye on the center over I'm. So set in modern times, Scottish adventure, Tara togs dreams of becoming a professional photographer and her knack for being in the wrong place at the wrong time lands her smack bang in the middle of a gang of ruthless criminals. And their plot to steal a valuable piece of art. Tara togs silence of the unicorns by Stref took five years to complete. Steph is the pen name, Stephen White, who is a writer and artist he's worked on Beano dandy vis and on other characters, such as Peter pan raising Amy. And so on. It's a 72 page graphic novel work, inspired by Herge and, in the Tintin book format. But it's a new story with this new character. Tara Togs looks very Tintin -ish. But a girl version. you can read the six page prologue on the Kickstarter that's there. So you can try before you buy. It looks so cool. Really did. Take my fancy, especially if you're a fan of Herge but we're looking for something a bit more modern. I think the Kickstarter is eight pounds to get digital copy, 10 pounds to have the printed copy sent to you. I think It's open till the 18th of April. So it's only a couple of weeks to get involved in that Kickstarter. If you're interested, I'm going to be signing up for it. I think it looks really cool. that's it for this episode, it's been a bit of a mini season of comic boom. This time we only do 10 episodes, a little. The nice punchy six episodes this time, but we will be back in the summer terms. There's not going to be very long. And excitingly, the podcast has a sponsor next season. Which is brilliant. It means that I can do some, work to hopefully over the course of the season, improve the website and it's, yeah, it's great. To be able to have a little bit of funding going into cover the cost of the recordings. We use a system that have to subscribe to monthly, to do the recordings and to do the editing and another system to get it out onto all of the different podcasting platforms. So it's not a free endeavor. So I'm. Absolutely delighted to be able to have a little bit of funding to help support it. But thank you so much for being passionate and lovely. I've had the pleasure in various events recently to meet some podcast listeners. and it's been absolutely lovely. So thank you for listening. There's lots of exciting stuff coming to you in the summer term. So watch this space. You've been listening to comic boom, which is produced and hosted by me, Lucy Starbuck Braidley, have a great break and see you in the next season.